The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by scryer

Go ahead and defund all cities' police forces. See what happens next.

The police force is then reformed with a community service mandate?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The police force is then reformed with a community service mandate?

Some people actually think defunding and disbanding police services means absolute lawlessness with no policing at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Some people actually think defunding and disbanding police services means absolute lawlessness with no policing at all.

As I said before that view exists on both sides. For different reasons and motivations, obviously.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Some people actually think defunding and disbanding police services means absolute lawlessness with no policing at all.

What does it mean, then? Hasn’t “community policing” been the reigning philosophy in Canada for decades already? How specifically will things change?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Andy6

What does it mean, then? Hasn’t “community policing” been the reigning philosophy in Canada for decades already? How specifically will things change?

Camden gives us a good idea:

Originally Posted by CityLab

In 2013, the Camden Police Department was disbanded, reimagined, and born again as the Camden County Police Department, with more officers at lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.”

That meant focusing on rebuilding trust between the community and their officers.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/

A lot of it is simply cutting away the fat that's built up over decades in our PDs. Canadian PDs don't suffer from these issues as much as our southern neighbours but, much like racism, we still have strides to make and steps to take forward to become better.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Camden gives us a good idea:



https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/

A lot of it is simply cutting away the fat that's built up over decades in our PDs. Canadian PDs don't suffer from these issues as much as our southern neighbours but, much like racism, we still have strides to make and steps to take forward to become better.

That sounds like “reform”, which is not what these people appear to have in mind. The mayor of Minneapolis supports what you’re talking about and got shouted down by the “dismantle the police” crowd. Marxists never want “reform”.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Some people actually think defunding and disbanding police services means absolute lawlessness with no policing at all.

To be fair, the media explanations of what would come next have been seriously lacking.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

To be fair, the media explanations of what would come next have been seriously lacking.

No doubt.

You can't just get rid of the police department. Chaos and anarchy would ensue. Effective policing is one of the pillars of modern society.

Obviously what is needed is reorganization, a change in focus and a concerted effort to get rid of the bad apples.

#1 - we may see police departments renamed, perhaps to something more euphemistic, such as "protective services"
#2 - more attention needs to be paid to appropriate training. A typical 20 week community college program is not sufficient for somebody who is legally armed and has the power of life and death. Maybe we should be looking at a full 3-4 year program, perhaps degree based, with wide training in the social sciences and humanities as well as emergency primary medical care in addition to criminology and enforcement.
#3 - proper psychological vetting should be undertaken for all applicants.
#4 - the "Protective Services Department" should become more specialized, just as how medicine is subspecialized. For example, here in NB, we just had an aboriginal woman shot and killed by a constable in Edmundston who was conducting a "wellness check" on her. She apparently came at him with a knife (so he says). Is a beat cop the best person to be conducting a wellness check? Maybe the protective services branch should include social workers as well, who could conduct this sort of a check either with or without back-up by enforcement officers. The social workers first instinct might not be to shoot somebody 2-3 times when they see somebody with a knife.
#5 - community policing should be the standard, as well as community engagement. The protective services officers need to get out of their cruisers as much as possible and engage with the citizenry so that some level of trust can be established. Collaboration with community leaders is a must.
#6 - if an unfortunate incident does happen to occur and a citizen is killed or injured by police action, then the incident must be handled by a completely independent body capable of handing out punishment (if necessary), and these deliberations should be completely transparent. Citizen involvement in the process is mandatory.

There are other things too, but I am at work and don't have the time for a complete thesis, but needless to say, policing is just as important to society as medical care, and the people providing this service need to be well trained and physically and psychologically capable of carrying out their duties. We have to improve the quality of the applicants seeking to become police officers, provide them with the best quality multidisciplinary training, give them the resources necessary for community based and subspecialized police services, and the appropriate oversight so that the population can feel comfortable every time they interact with a police officer.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

No doubt.

You can't just get rid of the police department. Chaos and anarchy would ensue. Effective policing is one of the pillars of modern society.

Obviously what is needed is reorganization, a change in focus and a concerted effort to get rid of the bad apples.

#1 - we may see police departments renamed, perhaps to something more euphemistic, such as "protective services"
#2 - more attention needs to be paid to appropriate training. A typical 20 week community college program is not sufficient for somebody who is legally armed and has the power of life and death. Maybe we should be looking at a full 3-4 year program, perhaps degree based, with wide training in the social sciences and humanities as well as emergency primary medical care in addition to criminology and enforcement.
#3 - proper psychological vetting should be undertaken for all applicants.
#4 - the "Protective Services Department" should become more specialized, just as how medicine is subspecialized. For example, here in NB, we just had an aboriginal woman shot and killed by a constable in Edmundston who was conducting a "wellness check" on her. She apparently came at him with a knife (so he says). Is a beat cop the best person to be conducting a wellness check? Maybe the protective services branch should include social workers as well, who could conduct this sort of a check either with or without back-up by enforcement officers. The social workers first instinct might not be to shoot somebody 2-3 times when they see somebody with a knife.
#5 - community policing should be the standard, as well as community engagement. The protective services officers need to get out of their cruisers as much as possible and engage with the citizenry so that some level of trust can be established. Collaboration with community leaders is a must.
#6 - if an unfortunate incident does happen to occur and a citizen is killed or injured by police action, then the incident must be handled by a completely independent body capable of handing out punishment (if necessary), and these deliberations should be completely transparent. Citizen involvement in the process is mandatory.

There are other things too, but I am at work and don't have the time for a complete thesis, but needless to say, policing is just as important to society as medical care, and the people providing this service need to be well trained and physically and psychologically capable of carrying out their duties. We have to improve the quality of the applicants seeking to become police officers, provide them with the best quality multidisciplinary training, give them the resources necessary for community based and subspecialized police services, and the appropriate oversight so that the population can feel comfortable every time they interact with a police officer.

I could be wrong, but I think Ontario currently requires a two year community college certificate in law enforcement (or equivalents).

[casper]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Camden gives us a good idea:



https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/

A lot of it is simply cutting away the fat that's built up over decades in our PDs. Canadian PDs don't suffer from these issues as much as our southern neighbours but, much like racism, we still have strides to make and steps to take forward to become better.

Canada has some unique problems with policing. We have to be carefull we are address those problems and not trying to copy solutions form the US that area geared around solving issues the US has. CNN had some interesting stats:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html

Deaths in Custody
US: 12 per 100,000
Australia: 5 per 100,000
UK: 2 per 100,000

People in Jail:
US: 655 per 100,000
Canada: 114 per 100,000
the rest of the G8 is similar to Canada.

Blacks in Jail:
US: 33% of prisons while only 12% of population
Canada: 9% of prisoners while only 4% of population

Perhaps some of it is how policing is done.

At the federal level (both in Canada and the US) that are multiple special types of police that focus only in specific area. Those don't appear to be the problem. So maybe we need more of that and less of the general purpose police office that one time is dealing with counter fit bill, the next time its murder or burglary to someone speeding.

One of the common issues raised by the black community in the various news articles are randomly being pulled over by the police because they don't match someone stereotype. Perhaps shift responsibility for traffic violations to bylaw like officers that have that as their sole mandate. At that point they have no reason to pull anyone over for any reason other that how they drive their vehicle.

The catalyst for all of this is a counterfeit $20 bill. Why in the world is anyone being arrest for that in the first place.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

#6 - if an unfortunate incident does happen to occur and a citizen is killed or injured by police action, then the incident must be handled by a completely independent body capable of handing out punishment (if necessary), and these deliberations should be completely transparent. Citizen involvement in the process is mandatory.

The Regis Korchinski-Paquet case is already being handled by the Special Investigations Unit in Ontario, a civilian oversight agency that gets involved whenever police are ever involved in a death, serious injury, or allegation of sexual assault. This group was established in 1990. Their investigation of the Regis case hasn't been concluded yet, but they said there is video of the incident.

None of that seem to have much impact on how protesters view the Regis case, nor does the reality that policing might already be different in Canada compared to the US seem to enter into the debate much. Even the CBC tends to put the the George Floyd case, flagrant police brutality, in the same bin as more dubious cases like Regis Korchinski-Paquet. Probably because it's hard to find a recent case in Canada comparable to George Floyd.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's also the political aspect. What mayor wants to be seen cutting or even refusing to fund requests from police departments?

If their request gets denied, they will sometimes, work to undermine the local government. In Chicago, for example, after being forced to wear bodycams they didn't like, cops started to simply not respond to calls or would show up and stay in the cruiser. Of course, crime goes up and then they blame those "Democratic politicians".

I think that tide is changing. Vancouver Police are whining about a proposed 1% cut to their budget this year. Everybody is suffering in this economy, why should they be spared a ONE PERCENT cut?

Their budget has been increasing faster than the overall city budget for a decade+. Something has to give.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think that tide is changing. Vancouver Police are whining about a proposed 1% cut to their budget this year. Everybody is suffering in this economy, why should they be spared a ONE PERCENT cut?

Their budget has been increasing faster than the overall city budget for a decade+. Something has to give.

This is true but a mild budget cut is not the vision the folks holding "ACAB Abolish Police" placards have in their minds.

This is BLM Vancouver's statement on the subject:

The City of Vancouver must commit to improving social conditions across the city with a commitment to the goal of eventually abolishing police and prisons, as they serve the primary purpose of oppressing marginalized communities and protecting the riches of the wealthy minority of denizens.

I guess "eventually" makes this so vague that it has no meaning. If one day humans live in a utopia they will not need police or prisons.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Regis Korchinski-Paquet case is already being handled by the Special Investigations Unit in Ontario, a civilian oversight agency that gets involved whenever police are ever involved in a death, serious injury, or allegation of sexual assault. This group was established in 1990. Their investigation of the Regis case hasn't been concluded yet, but they said there is video of the incident.

None of that seem to have much impact on how protesters view the Regis case, nor does the reality that policing might already be different in Canada compared to the US seem to enter into the debate much. Even the CBC tends to put the the George Floyd case, flagrant police brutality, in the same bin as more dubious cases like Regis Korchinski-Paquet. Probably because it's hard to find a recent case in Canada comparable to George Floyd.

Video only of the apartment corridor, not from inside the apartment, iinm. The police officers were not wearing body cameras, afaik.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is true but a mild budget cut is not the vision the folks holding "ACAB Abolish Police" placards have in their minds.

This is BLM Vancouver's statement on the subject:

The City of Vancouver must commit to improving social conditions across the city with a commitment to the goal of eventually abolishing police and prisons, as they serve the primary purpose of oppressing marginalized communities and protecting the riches of the wealthy minority of denizens.

I guess "eventually" makes this so vague that it has no meaning. If one day humans live in a utopia they will not need police or prisons.

Always interesting when people give these examples, as a big part of our discussions on here consists of arguing with people who say things like "who is suggesting that?", "no one has EVER suggested that!" or simply "prove it bucko!".

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Always interesting when people give these examples, as a big part of our discussions on here consists of arguing with people who say things like "who is suggesting that?", "no one has EVER suggested that!" or simply "prove it bucko!".

Bait-and-switch. BLM has specific demands and the chapters lobby for support of their agenda, like any other political group. When it comes time to talk to legislators or police chiefs the demands are specific but when it comes to public support it's more along the lines of "if you aren't with us you might be racist". It's possible for people not to be completely on board with their list of demands without being racist. It's even possible to be in favour of heavy police reform but not feel that their program is the way to go.

It goes without saying that all these deaths are unfortunate and some of the killings by police are truly egregious. But it does not make sense to treat police as a monolithic multinational entity. And the notion that racism is the issue of policing is debatable. We can break things down by race, sure, but also by sex or by mental health characteristics. Or there might be cultural or structural factors inherent to police organizations that have nothing to do with identity characteristics of the victims of police brutality. But these days accusations of racism and sexism or gender discrimination are our hammers and everything looks like a nail.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is true but a mild budget cut is not the vision the folks holding "ACAB Abolish Police" placards have in their minds.

This is BLM Vancouver's statement on the subject:

The City of Vancouver must commit to improving social conditions across the city with a commitment to the goal of eventually abolishing police and prisons, as they serve the primary purpose of oppressing marginalized communities and protecting the riches of the wealthy minority of denizens.

I guess "eventually" makes this so vague that it has no meaning. If one day humans live in a utopia they will not need police or prisons.

Can we stop taking BLM’s stance on every issue as gospel? There’s a spectrum of dissatisfaction with protesters. Not recognizing that is starting to verge on being a strawman.

[once]

Honestly I find Canadian black lives matter to generally tilt more extreme than the southern counterpart. I’m not sure if it’s just because the well is relatively more dry and they have to use pretty esoteric historical examples of police brutality (like stopping an armed suspect who literally stabbed people as a blm issue) but I find more often than not blm in Canada tends to have more extreme positions about things overall.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is true but a mild budget cut is not the vision the folks holding "ACAB Abolish Police" placards have in their minds.

How do you know though? Extremely corrupt organizations like Minneapolis PD obviously need to be blown up.

Other examples exist around the world.

VPD can take a 1% haircut easily, and perhaps money can be diverted to other areas the police are currently responsible for.

Worth asking why police forces are armed to the teeth and we had a PPE shortage for hospital workers.

[once]

At the end of the day forget about what blm official position is because it’s a distraction.

Funding police is similar to funding a treatment for a disease with huge side effects. Should we treat the symptoms or cure the disease?

As others have pointed out, it’s a better use of our money on preventative measures instead of ballooning police budgets. Education, social programs, community programs - these things are competing with police budgets and have the potential to remove the need for ever more police officers.

Does that philosophy make sense, and how can we go about practicing what we preach here - those are the questions we should be discussing - not esoteric BLM stances which are politically impalpable anyway.