The Great Canadian Transit Thread - Page 713

ssiguy · #**14241** Posted **May 28, 2020, 9:24 PM**

The RH Yonge extension is a high priority and should go ahead and with the essential DRL to relieve Y&B and capacity problems south of Bloor.The entire DRL does not have to be completed before the Yonge ext just the key segment of Pape/Bloor to Yong/University.

Remember kids, Toronto can demand this because Toronto is in the driver's seat. Even if Toronto doesn't contribute a plug nickel doesn't change the fact that 1.5 km of the route goes thru Toronto so it needs approval from the City to go forward. Toronto can simply state that before the Yonge ext is complete, the core segment of the DRL must be up and running.

Nouvellecosse · #**14242** Posted **May 28, 2020, 10:07 PM**

It isn't really clear how much additional ridership the Yonge extension would cause since the terminus at Finch already gets many riders from Richmond Hill. The main difference is now they arrive there via slower, less efficient buses. Obviously improved service does attract some new riders, but it isn't like the majority of the riders on the extension will be new.

As for commuter rail, I'd say that distance is right on the edge in terms of desirability for RT vs CR. I mean RT has slower operating speeds and more stops, but it has orders of magnitude greater frequency and many more stops downtown allowing it to deliver many people closer to their final destinations. 20ish km, 15ish stops tends to be the max I would consider desirable for an traditional RT route. With any transit service, generally the longer the distance the greater the stop spacing it should have. So commuter rail, rapid transit hybrid style services like DC Metrorail can stretch further due to their high speeds and high stop spacing. For the Yonge Ext I would recommend only 3 stops due to the suburban nature. Steeles, Centre/John, and the terminus.

Doady · #**14243** Posted **May 28, 2020, 10:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Too be clear, my biggest opposition to the project is the lack of a downtown relief line. That needs to be addressed first and foremost.

I have a lot of animosity against the Vaughn extension. It could have been built far cheaper by elevating the line, at least partially, and right-sizing the stations, possibly even holding off on building a few of them.

I also have a major issue with Queen's Park, the Provincial Government, acting like a regional government for the GTA (yes, GO Transit, but Ford's subway plan should be TTC projects).

I didn't have too much problem with subway to connect York U. It also provided a little relief for Yonge. Pape/Don Mills corridor should have been priority though.

Btw, I meant to put Viva Pink instead of Purple on the list of frequencies. But I think you guys got my point. Yonge north of Finch isn't some minor corridor.

I have said here before though, the biggest problem with York Region is long boundary with Toronto along Steeles and lack of integration with TTC. These subway extensions will never reach if they don't fix that. At least a VIVA on Steeles, or shared funding of TTC Steeles buses. THAT should be the #1 priority for York Region, not this subway extension.

Dengler Avenue · #**14244** Posted **May 28, 2020, 10:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

I didn't have too much problem with subway to connect York U. It also provided a little relief for Yonge. Pape/Don Mills corridor should have been priority though.

Btw, I meant to put Viva Pink instead of Purple on the list of frequencies. But I think you guys got my point. Yonge north of Finch isn't some minor corridor.

I have said here before though, the biggest problem with York Region is long boundary with Toronto along Steeles and lack of integration with TTC. These subway extensions will never reach if they don't fix that. At least a VIVA on Steeles, or shared funding of TTC Steeles buses. THAT should be the #1 priority for York Region, not this subway extension.

I’m curious about the termini of this Viva Steeles though. Vaughan Metropolitan Centre on the west (with Züm and Viva Orange) and Cornell in the east? That’ll require the City of Toronto to get serious about widening the remainder of Steeles Avenue too. In fact, in an act of fantasy, I also wanna see Durham Regional Transit (wink wink: Taunton Pulse) come up to Cornell too.
Edit: Oh I forgot to mention that the subway needs to come up to at least Steeles Avenue in that case. Otherwise, it’ll be weird to skip Finch Terminal. If it’s just between Finch Station and Cornell, we may as well let TTC run a 253 express to Cornell, and, as always, “Extra fair required, north of Steeles”.

Doady · #**14245** Posted **May 28, 2020, 10:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It isn't really clear how much additional ridership the Yonge extension would cause since the terminus at Finch already gets many riders from Richmond Hill. The main difference is now they arrive there via slower, less efficient buses. Obviously improved service does attract some new riders, but it isn't like the majority of the riders on the extension will be new.

I've said before, subway and LRT should only be built to address too high ridership, not too low ridership. Spending money to build these kind of transit lines to increase ridership is just totally the wrong mentally. Diverting funds away from low ridership bus system to build light rail in the US failed to increase ridership there and it won't work here.

York Region did the same thing with VIVA. All door boarding, fare machines, transitways, limited stops. Very fancy, but ridership didn't increase. So with VIVA money pit, YRT had to kill regular bus service and so they've been falling further and further behind MiWay and Brampton Transit. The key to increasing ridership is regular buses, a complete network. Not a BRT, not LRT, not subway.

As I said, the problem with YRT is it is not a complete network. In addition to the killing of non-VIVA service, they don't have any Steeles route. That's a major gap. The biggest barrier is political.

Yonge north of Finch is exactly the kind of place to build rail. Just crazy ridership. Rail is just to maintain high ridership, not increase ridership. Rail didn't increase ridership anywhere in Canada. Like, Ottawa already had extremely high ridership before BRT. BRT didn't increase the ridership and the new LRT won't increase it either. How much higher can the ridership get? That doesn't mean LRT was not needed.

Quote:

As for commuter rail, I'd say that distance is right on the edge in terms of desirability for RT vs CR. I mean RT has slower operating speeds and more stops, but it has orders of magnitude greater frequency and many more stops downtown allowing it to deliver many people closer to their final destinations. 20ish km, 15ish stops tends to be the max I would consider desirable for an traditional RT route. With any transit service, generally the longer the distance the greater the stop spacing it should have. So commuter rail, rapid transit hybrid style services like DC Metrorail can stretch further due to their high speeds and high stop spacing. For the Yonge Ext I would recommend only 3 stops due to the suburban nature. Steeles, Centre/John, and the terminus.

Richmond Hill line is too far from Yonge, too indirect, not serving important nodes, and of course it is in a floodplain, so flooding is an issue. The Stouffville Line is very good candidate for rapid transit, S-Bahn style, but Richmond Hill Line maybe not so much. I think Yonge extension + DRL is better to serve this area.

J.OT13 · #**14246** Posted **May 28, 2020, 10:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

I didn't have too much problem with subway to connect York U. It also provided a little relief for Yonge. Pape/Don Mills corridor should have been priority though.

Btw, I meant to put Viva Pink instead of Purple on the list of frequencies. But I think you guys got my point. Yonge north of Finch isn't some minor corridor.

I have said here before though, the biggest problem with York Region is long boundary with Toronto along Steeles and lack of integration with TTC. These subway extensions will never reach if they don't fix that. At least a VIVA on Steeles, or shared funding of TTC Steeles buses. THAT should be the #1 priority for York Region, not this subway extension.

Subway serving York U is well worth it. Downsview and Highway 407 could have been built much smaller or spots could have been reserved for future infills.The line could also have been elevated for a stretch. That might not be an option for RH since it is more built-up.

With the Province sticking its nose in the GTA transit business (beyond GO), and funding lines for local transit agencies, killing, reviving and inventing plans, they might as well merge all of the transit agencies into one and run themselves or create a regional transit board (like Vancouver's Translink). I know Ford wanted to take over the TTC, but I don't think merging agencies was his end goal.

The same can be said of most metropolitan regions; the goal should be one transit agency that determines transit needs and not play political games.

p_xavier · #**14247** Posted **May 29, 2020, 8:33 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Subway serving York U is well worth it. Downsview and Highway 407 could have been built much smaller or spots could have been reserved for future infills.The line could also have been elevated for a stretch. That might not be an option for RH since it is more built-up.

With the Province sticking its nose in the GTA transit business (beyond GO), and funding lines for local transit agencies, killing, reviving and inventing plans, they might as well merge all of the transit agencies into one and run themselves or create a regional transit board (like Vancouver's Translink). I know Ford wanted to take over the TTC, but I don't think merging agencies was his end goal.

The same can be said of most metropolitan regions; the goal should be one transit agency that determines transit needs and not play political games.

Euh, like Metrolinx?

J.OT13 · #**14248** Posted **May 29, 2020, 12:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Euh, like Metrolinx?

Metrolinx is a Provincial body that runs GO, the nearly province wide Presto card system, and dictates where transit lines will be (based on political whims). I'm thinking more like TransLink in Vancouver, where you have one agency and one fare system. Where the Mayors and local business representatives control the board, not the fat man at Queen's Park. TransLink, and its predecessor BC Transit, made a transit plan in the early 90s and suck to them through 30 years of development, unlike the GTA that comes up with a new plan every time a new Premier or Mayor comes into power.

SkahHigh · #**14249** Posted **May 29, 2020, 12:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Metrolinx is a Provincial body that runs GO, the nearly province wide Presto card system, and dictates where transit lines will be (based on political whims). I'm thinking more like TransLink in Vancouver, where you have one agency and one fare system. Where the Mayors and local business representatives control the board, not the fat man at Queen's Park. TransLink, and its predecessor BC Transit, made a transit plan in the early 90s and suck to them through 30 years of development, unlike the GTA that comes up with a new plan every time a new Premier or Mayor comes into power.

Sounds like Quebec and Ontario have a lot in common in transit planning

p_xavier · #**14250** Posted **May 29, 2020, 12:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Metrolinx is a Provincial body that runs GO, the nearly province wide Presto card system, and dictates where transit lines will be (based on political whims). I'm thinking more like TransLink in Vancouver, where you have one agency and one fare system. Where the Mayors and local business representatives control the board, not the fat man at Queen's Park. TransLink, and its predecessor BC Transit, made a transit plan in the early 90s and suck to them through 30 years of development, unlike the GTA that comes up with a new plan every time a new Premier or Mayor comes into power.

You mean like the Richmond LRT, the Coquitlam LRT and the Surrey LRT? You have rose-tinted glasses here. Surrey's mayor change is why it's getting a SkyTrain extension now. Metrolinx is already in place, and it should have more control over transit if anything.

J.OT13 · #**14251** Posted **May 29, 2020, 1:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_xavier

You mean like the Richmond LRT, the Coquitlam LRT and the Surrey LRT? You have rose-tinted glasses here. Surrey's mayor change is why it's getting a SkyTrain extension now. Metrolinx is already in place, and it should have more control over transit if anything.

I'm not claiming that TransLink is perfect. Far from it. However, it has been more consistent with its plans. Yes they screwed around with the whole LRT vs RT debate, but ultimately, they ended up completing SkyTrain extensions in two of those corridors (Richmond and Coquitlam open within 10 years of initial planning) and are two years away from building the third (Surrey, which will be around 15 years from initial planning stage to opening). The amount of time wasted on these debates are relatively short.

In Toronto, the debate rages on for Scarborough and the DRL after 15+ years. Ford claims that the debate is over, but it's probably not. Even if it is, we're still years away from shovels in the ground.

The main advantage with TransLink isn't planning though, but a integrated system. One transit agency for a metropolitan area instead of the eight disjointed services in Toronto. I don't see how we can disagree on that point.

p_xavier · #**14252** Posted **May 29, 2020, 3:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The main advantage with TransLink isn't planning though, but a integrated system. One transit agency for a metropolitan area instead of the eight disjointed services in Toronto. I don't see how we can disagree on that point.

We don't. But something akin to the ARTM, where Metrolinx funds the transit companies and do the planning would be more useful than a mammoth TTC.

swimmer_spe · #**14253** Posted **May 29, 2020, 6:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It isn't really clear how much additional ridership the Yonge extension would cause since the terminus at Finch already gets many riders from Richmond Hill. The main difference is now they arrive there via slower, less efficient buses. Obviously improved service does attract some new riders, but it isn't like the majority of the riders on the extension will be new.

As for commuter rail, I'd say that distance is right on the edge in terms of desirability for RT vs CR. I mean RT has slower operating speeds and more stops, but it has orders of magnitude greater frequency and many more stops downtown allowing it to deliver many people closer to their final destinations. 20ish km, 15ish stops tends to be the max I would consider desirable for an traditional RT route. With any transit service, generally the longer the distance the greater the stop spacing it should have. So commuter rail, rapid transit hybrid style services like DC Metrorail can stretch further due to their high speeds and high stop spacing. For the Yonge Ext I would recommend only 3 stops due to the suburban nature. Steeles, Centre/John, and the terminus.

If only they could make Langstaff/Richmond Hill Centre a real hub that was good at directing people to a 2 way 15 minute GO service.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Subway serving York U is well worth it. Downsview and Highway 407 could have been built much smaller or spots could have been reserved for future infills.The line could also have been elevated for a stretch. That might not be an option for RH since it is more built-up.

With the Province sticking its nose in the GTA transit business (beyond GO), and funding lines for local transit agencies, killing, reviving and inventing plans, they might as well merge all of the transit agencies into one and run themselves or create a regional transit board (like Vancouver's Translink). I know Ford wanted to take over the TTC, but I don't think merging agencies was his end goal.

The same can be said of most metropolitan regions; the goal should be one transit agency that determines transit needs and not play political games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Metrolinx is a Provincial body that runs GO, the nearly province wide Presto card system, and dictates where transit lines will be (based on political whims). I'm thinking more like TransLink in Vancouver, where you have one agency and one fare system. Where the Mayors and local business representatives control the board, not the fat man at Queen's Park. TransLink, and its predecessor BC Transit, made a transit plan in the early 90s and suck to them through 30 years of development, unlike the GTA that comes up with a new plan every time a new Premier or Mayor comes into power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_xavier

You mean like the Richmond LRT, the Coquitlam LRT and the Surrey LRT? You have rose-tinted glasses here. Surrey's mayor change is why it's getting a SkyTrain extension now. Metrolinx is already in place, and it should have more control over transit if anything.

Agreed. Once a metropolitan area becomes so big that the former cities and towns are now just one big mass, a regional transit agency should be set up and should run and organize it all. This way, the places that need higher order transit can get it.

lrt's friend · #**14254** Posted **May 29, 2020, 10:45 PM**

Ottawa is the perfect example. Ottawa plans transit as if Gatineau does not exist, and Gatineau does likewise. Will if ever be possible to have effective interprovincial transit? The same applies to bridges. Regional planning is pathetic and NIMBYs win easily to oppose any project. Who cares if alternatives cost billions?

p_xavier · #**14255** Posted **May 29, 2020, 10:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ottawa is the perfect example. Ottawa plans transit as if Gatineau does not exist, and Gatineau does likewise. Will if ever be possible to have effective interprovincial transit? The same applies to bridges. Regional planning is pathetic and NIMBYs win easily to oppose any project. Who cares if alternatives cost billions?

Gatineau's LRT line is going the right way? Or should we blame the NCC for idiotic decisions like the parkway tunnel?

swimmer_spe · #**14256** Posted **May 30, 2020, 12:19 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ottawa is the perfect example. Ottawa plans transit as if Gatineau does not exist, and Gatineau does likewise. Will if ever be possible to have effective interprovincial transit? The same applies to bridges. Regional planning is pathetic and NIMBYs win easily to oppose any project. Who cares if alternatives cost billions?

This is one of the only times I will think the USA is smart. Their capital is a separate entity. Maybe 100km from the Peace Tower becomes a new province/territory that is governed by the federal government in some way.