The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Labrador only has a total population of 26K so some of those have to be in Newfoundland.

Labrador is home to most (Nunatsiavut is an autonomous region, a country within the province, home to the Inuit; the Innu have two federal reserves; and the mixed people, or Nunatukavut, are everywhere else with a community council that liaises with all other levels of government).

On the island, the only reserve is Miawpukek Mi'kamawey Mawi'omi (known by non-Indigenous as Conne River, a name also commonly used by its Mi'kmaq residents). Although it's a reserve, the Mi'kmaq arrived in Newfoundland from the Maritimes after Europeans so they do not have the same federal rights as those in Labrador.

There's also the landless Qualipu band. That will end up with something between 11,000 and 140,000 members, mostly on the West Coast and Central region of the island.

And finally St. John's has a rapidly growing Indigenous population primarily made up of people who have moved here from all the communities above, with the Mi'kmaq and Innu being the most likely to do so.

*****

Some background info:

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How many of you have read Canadian BLM manifestos? Serious question. They aren't morons.

Their manifestos are generally a mess; I assume the Canadian ones are mostly written by committees of undergrads, maybe even with some oppressed trustafarian representation (around here the movement was centered on UBC, no doubt a hotbed of deprivation and oppression). Maybe they've gotten better lately. I last had a look last year, and there was discussion of the manifestos on SSP.

Last year BLM Vancouver attempted to hold the Pride society in Vancouver hostage and threatened to interrupt the parade unless they were paid. They also demanded that there be no police presence at the event, putting the society in a difficult situation. They weren't happy to have their own BLM presence and let others do their own thing, they wanted to control the whole event. They won't be able to do it this year because there will be no Pride. That outcome wasn't far off even before covid due to the activist pressure on the volunteers (the Pride parade in Edmonton was cancelled if I recall correctly).

I keep seeing more and more stuff along the lines of "if you don't support BLM, don't come to Pride!". I have never seen political rhetoric around gay rights as racialized as it is now, with people focused on the races of people who protested 50 years ago (and in a lot of cases exaggerating or making up stories). Incidentally white cis male representation on a lot of Pride boards has fallen to 0.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And this is not how history happens either. Imagine Egyptians looking at protests in Tunisia thinking, "Well. It's not really an Egyptian issue. So...."

That's 2+2=5. The demonstrators in Tahrir Sq in Cairo were there against Moubarak, not against Ben Ali. I can't read Arabic but somehow I doubt the signs and the chants referenced Ben Ali at all.

Gimme a break.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I dispute that they are "taking precedence over our own". Rather it seems reflective of, "Think globally. Act locally."

This line of thinking that only FN issues are "Canadian" is also strange. The proportion of visible minority in Canada is > 22% of the population. The proportion of First Nations is < 5% of the population. I would expect the larger group and its issues to end up getting more attention.

Only if the issues facing that 22% are more serious than those face the 5%-10% who are indigenous.

I'd argue (and I think most would agree) that regardless of their percentage of the population, the multitude of serious issues faced by *most* indigenous people and their communities are more serious than police intimidation of visible minorities and other forms of racism against them. As many have pointed out on here, most visible minority populations in Canada are tremendously successful, and generally achieve a higher standard of living than that of indigenous people, not that long after settling here.

In terms of greater percentage shares deserving more attention, I gather you don't think "White Americans" are deserving of more attention than other groups, even though many of them have serious problems with joblessness due to the new economy and the skills it requires, obesity, drug use, etc.

Didn't think so.

[someone123]

Stephen Pinker on anarchism:

When law enforcement vanishes, all manner of violence breaks out: looting, settling old scores, ethnic cleansing, and petty warfare among gangs, warlords and mafias. This was obvious in the remnants of Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, and parts of Africa in the 1990s, but can also happen in countries with a long tradition of civility. As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin’s anarchism. I laughed off my parents’ argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the test at 8:00 A.M. on October 17, 1969, when the Montreal police went on strike. By 11:20 A.M. the first bank was robbed. By noon most downtown stores had closed because of looting. Within a few more hours, taxi drivers burned down the garage of a limousine service that had competed with them for airport customers, a rooftop sniper killed a provincial police officer, rioters broke into several hotels and restaurants, and a doctor slew a burglar in his suburban home. By the end of the day, six banks had been robbed, a hundred shops had been looted, twelve fires had been set, forty carloads of storefront glass had been broken, and three million dollars in property damage had been inflicted, before city authorities had to call ni the army and, of course, the Mounties to restore order. This decisive empirical test left my politics in tatters (and offered a foretaste of life as a scientist).

(The Blank Slate, p. 331)

I disagree with Pinker that late-60's Montreal was a peaceable place but the point about anarchism stands. BLM has a problem with support for anarchism and antagonism toward police, and their animus toward police here is often fueled by events that happen in the US. The police here are far from perfect but they have to be at the table if we want to solve some of the problems BLM activists in Canada complain about.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Not hyper-partisan, just frustrating to engage with at times.

It's also easy to see partisanship when somebody posts a left or right wing view, and somebody else responds "but that's 10% wrong!" as if that devalues the whole thing.

That's because in this day and age, most people are used to debating in terms that allow them to slot everyone into a "good guy" or "bad guy" role.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Labrador is home to most (Nunatsiavut is an autonomous region, a country within the province, home to the Inuit; the Innu have two federal reserves; and the mixed people, or Nunatukavut, are everywhere else with a community council that liaises with all other levels of government).

On the island, the only reserve is Miawpukek Mi'kamawey Mawi'omi (known by non-Indigenous as Conne River, a name also commonly used by its Mi'kmaq residents). Although it's a reserve, the Mi'kmaq arrived in Newfoundland from the Maritimes after Europeans so they do not have the same federal rights as those in Labrador.

There's also the landless Qualipu band. That will end up with something between 11,000 and 140,000 members, mostly on the West Coast and Central region of the island.

And finally St. John's has a rapidly growing Indigenous population primarily made up of people who have moved here from all the communities above, with the Mi'kmaq and Innu being the most likely to do so.

*****

Some background info:

"There's also the landless Qualipu band. That will end up with something between 11,000 and 140,000 members," - How is this possible, with NL's population, to reach 140,000 more than one in four Nflders would have to be aboriginal? That sounds pretty bogus to me.

In the chart, it would be better to compare natives in Canada to natives in the US, likewise with the black populations. Why compare things that are not the same?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Stephen Pinker on anarchism:

When law enforcement vanishes, all manner of violence breaks out: looting, settling old scores, ethnic cleansing, and petty warfare among gangs, warlords and mafias. This was obvious in the remnants of Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, and parts of Africa in the 1990s, but can also happen in countries with a long tradition of civility. As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin’s anarchism. I laughed off my parents’ argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the test at 8:00 A.M. on October 17, 1969, when the Montreal police went on strike. By 11:20 A.M. the first bank was robbed. By noon most downtown stores had closed because of looting. Within a few more hours, taxi drivers burned down the garage of a limousine service that had competed with them for airport customers, a rooftop sniper killed a provincial police officer, rioters broke into several hotels and restaurants, and a doctor slew a burglar in his suburban home. By the end of the day, six banks had been robbed, a hundred shops had been looted, twelve fires had been set, forty carloads of storefront glass had been broken, and three million dollars in property damage had been inflicted, before city authorities had to call ni the army and, of course, the Mounties to restore order. This decisive empirical test left my politics in tatters (and offered a foretaste of life as a scientist).

(The Blank Slate, p. 331)

Ha ha. I posted that in the Current Events section a few days ago!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by someone123

If anything though this phenomenon is hard to square with the idea that Canadian society or police are pro-white and out to keep POCs down (the BLM itself uses the term POC). Canada has had many non-white immigrant groups that have come here with nothing and become very successful. If it were a highly racist and repressive society that would simply not be possible.

I point that out not because I believe nothing is wrong but that I don't think generic anti-racist campaigning is going to do much for groups like First Nations in Canada.

It's a question of whether the impact of history should be considered racist. Americans have this same debate all the time. Some point out Asians who have come to the US and become the "model minority". And ask why blacks can't achieve the same. However, that's an argument that requires all dismissal of the impact of history from slavery to segregation to the War on Drugs to suburban white flight.

Similarly, are we going to say that aboriginals in Canada are not suffering from the impact of historical policies when they live on reserves we built/allocated for them and are governed by structures that we imposed on them? We can say Canada isn't racist. But does that matter when there is still some highly racialized probabilities? If any one of us were born on a reserve, the chances of achieving as much would be far less. That is undeniable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I was in the reserves for many years and I agree. Particularly at various training courses with mismatches of people from all places in Canada and walks of life.

There's a stereotype of somebody who joins the military, and there are those types, but they are the minority. It's remarkable to see the facebook updates of these people years later and where they are at.

Interesting to read all the posts from you and TrueNorth about how everyone gets along great.

Both of you seem to have issues with certain demographics in our society (francophones in your case).

I guess you guys keep your views to yourselves when you're with these types of people.

All of which is great for "harmony", I realize!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I gather you don't think "White Americans" are deserving of more attention than other groups...

You know what they say about assumptions.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's a question of whether the impact of history should be considered racist. Americans have this same debate all the time. Some point out Asians who have come to the US and become the "model minority". And ask why blacks can't achieve the same. However, that's an argument that requires all dismissal of the impact of history from slavery to segregation to the War on Drugs to suburban white flight.

Similarly, are we going to say that aboriginals in Canada are not suffering from the impact of historical policies when they live on reserves we built/allocated for them and are governed by structures that we imposed on them? We can say Canada isn't racist. But does that matter when there is still some highly racialized probabilities? If any one of us were born on a reserve, the chances of achieving as much would be far less. That is undeniable.

But how does it follow from this that we should "adjust" for past wrongs through policing?

For example if ethnic group X is disadvantaged and so commits more murders now, give them prison sentences that are half as long so prison time is balanaced by ethnicity. That makes no sense to me, but would take the wind out of the sails of BLM as far as the police are concerned. The easiest thing for the police to do if pressured about racism is to stop policing minority communities.

I think that in Canada we mostly have economic and social issues that police can't do much about. I'd be okay with cutting their funding moderately and diverting some of that to social programs. But we are fooling ourselves if we think that black or indigenous problems in Canada mostly come down to police brutality and would evaporate in the absence of police. Or if they are caused by "white" maliciousness.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You know what they say about assumptions.

Please share! Don't keep all the good stuff just for yourself!

(BTW everyone in my Gen X and Gen Y entourage gets along great as well! Same goes for my kids who were all born in the 21st century!)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

But how does it follow from this that we should "adjust" for past wrongs through policing?

For example if ethnic group X is disadvantaged and so commits more murders now, give them prison sentences that are half as long so prison time is balanaced by ethnicity. That makes no sense to me, but would take the wind out of the sails of BLM as far as the police are concerned. The easiest thing for the police to do if pressured about racism is to stop policing minority communities.

I think that in Canada we mostly have economic and social issues that police can't do much about. I'd be okay with cutting their funding moderately and diverting some of that to social programs. But we are fooling ourselves if we think that black or indigenous problems in Canada mostly come down to police brutality. Or if they are caused by "white" maliciousness.

Most of the problems in the African-American community aren't related to police brutality either.

[MolsonExport]

Let's hope the discourse about racism in Canada doesn't stoop to the level epitomized by Rudy Giuliani (who looks like he is wearing orange foundation, in all honesty, and pardon the pun), who, to borrow Piers Morgan's assessment, "sounds completely barking mad!"

• Video Link

[ssiguy]

Canada's Natives have it, in many ways, far worse than African Americans. Biases against Natives are still rampant in Canada and I would say more so in the West as they are far more visible and are correlated with the West's higher crime and murder rates.

The Natives however make up a much smaller percentage of the population than AA do and very importantly are decidedly rural and often live hundreds of km from the nearest city. Conversely, AA are overwhelmingly urban and especially in the downtown cores so there is no such thing as going weeks or months without seeing an AA. Think about it.......there are more Natives in Canada than Indo-Canadians and when including Metis that number soars well past the number of Chinese. Now how many minutes does it take for you to see either of those ethnic groups in ANY city in the country?

Natives for most Canadians are simply out of sight, out of mind. Biases and discriminatory attitudes are best broken down by personal contact and interaction and due to most Canadians very limited interaction with Natives, the stereotypes tend to linger. This is made worse by the fact that this non-visibility is much worse in Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa where all socio/economic/political policy decisions are made.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most of the problems in the African-American community aren't related to police brutality either.

For a lot of life outcomes, there is another variable that correlates more strongly than race does. For example, having 2 stable parents for your whole childhood is much more important than what race(s) you belong to. The level of educational attainment and income of your parents matters a lot too.

I think a lot of disadvantaged minorities just don't get as much personal support, on average, as individuals. This definitely impacts indigenous people in Canada since many are faced either with staying in the poor community they were born in or moving away from their family support.

BTW it can be similar for a poor white person who comes from a trailer and was raised by a single parent in some remote town. Light coloured skin is not a magic ticket to prosperity.

Police are not the tool for tackling these issues.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Interesting to read all the posts from you and TrueNorth about how everyone gets along great.

Both of you seem to have issues with certain demographics in our society (francophones in your case).

I guess you guys keep your views to yourselves when you're with these types of people.

All of which is great for "harmony", I realize!

Nah. More like our views aren't actually that far outside the mainstream for our peer groups. It's just jarring to you because this forum's demographics skew whiter, male, older, etc. So Warren and me stand out here....

I can absolutely tell the generational, ethnic, and urban-rural profiles on this sub. I guarantee you that most of your views would be viewed as out of touch with the mostly white twentysomething military officers I work with, who would in theory be more conservative than their peers. 3:1 Anglo-Franco split. I daresay the Francos in that group would be most shocked at your views. But you sound absolutely typical and unremarkable to me for your age. Despite all the posturing about that Quebecois uniqueness I would bet money that you're closer to the average 50 something Anglo-Ontarian than the average 30 yr old Quebecer, on most issues.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Let's hope the discourse about racism in Canada doesn't stoop to the level epitomized by Rudy Giuliani (who looks like he is wearing orange foundation, in all honesty, and pardon the pun), who, to borrow Piers Morgan's assessment, "sounds completely barking mad!"

• Video Link

Giuliani does seem to have a good denturologist.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I can absolutely tell the generational, ethnic, and urban-rural profiles on this sub.

Are you sure this isn't the result of prejudice? You decide what the white 50 year old male opinion is and people with that opinion go in that bin.

I don't feel like I have a good grasp on the demographics here. Unless people tell me how old they are or what their background is it's hard to tell.