The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Truenorth00]

There's a lot of focus here on policing as apprehending criminals. But if you want to see how insidious racism is, look at how much an organization treats disparate clients. The weak investigative effort on missing, and murdered aboriginal women.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Some basic training on it. And exposure to ROEs for deployments. Is that enough? Or am I still too "keyboard warrior" for you?

Arguing that only those with knowledge of policing can discuss policy and the impact of policing is truly a disturbing stance, given the history in this area. I, wouldn't argue, that I as a military member should not have my actions discussed by public because few have done the same. Cops are public servants. With that paycheque comea the public's right to judge.

Obviously I am not suggesting that. And I wouldn't agree with that. I am one of the members on here who is most favourable to anything being open for discussion.

But when people start giving authoritative-sounding, precise details about what the cops (or doctors or engineers) should be doing, it's a valid question to ask.

I actually didn't have any specific posters in mind, BTW. So not necessarily you.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's a lot of focus here on policing as apprehending criminals. But if you want to see how insidious racism is, look at how much an organization treats disparate clients. The weak investigative effort on missing, and murdered aboriginal women.

Indeed. A very timely topic.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by lio45

The real area of disagreement here is to what degree this bias is something that we have to try to eliminate vs how much of it is okay and even helpful (to their job).

(In someone123's example, a police officer who's aware of the data showing that green people commit all the crimes will likely be using resources better than another one who has to respect a quota of 50% green arrests/50% blue arrests.)

Again, as I like to point out, the police have a HUGE subconscious bias against males, and also a HUGE subconscious bias against the young, while having equally huge subconscious biases in favor of females and in favor of the old.

Any intellectually honest conversation re: police profiling would include suggestions on what exactly to do about that.

The bias will only disappear when the causes of the bias disappear. The green population is grossly overrepresented in the prison system. The underlying causes can be better solved by sociologists, educators, counsellors, etc., than by the police and justice system The blue/green country needs better educational and health systems, etc., to help prevent the underlying causes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

Any intellectually honest conversation re: police profiling would include suggestions on what exactly to do about that.

I'd start with residency requirements. Especially for the big cities. There's evidence that policing becomes more even handed when police are resident in the community they serve.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Architype

The bias will only disappear when the causes of the bias disappear. The green population is grossly overrepresented in the prison system. The underlying causes can be better solved by sociologists, educators, counsellors, etc., than by the police The blue/green country needs better educational and health systems, etc., to help prevent the underlying causes.

This.

And there is a world of difference between the one-off moments of unfairness we have all dealt with (I have stories similar to Lio's about being warned/followed by managers/clerks about the store) and the regular, systemic profiling and profound waves of mistrust emanating from others experienced by visible minorities, let alone the many unpleasant incidents of outright prejudice that many if not most minorities experience, way, way more often than non-minorities.

I could go on about the experiences where I had been engaged in a conversation with friends (in English), only to have someone yell "Hein, ici c'est Quebec! Et ici, on parle francais!!". But these are extraordinarily trivial instances, of the sort that most people endure from time to time, that do not merit being included in a thread on racism in Canada.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'd start with residency requirements. Especially for the big cities. There's evidence that policing becomes more even handed when police are resident in the community they serve.

That makes a lot of sense but would probably be hard to fully implement.

[Wigs]

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

That makes a lot of sense but would probably be hard to fully implement.

It already exists in quite a few municipalities.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'd start with residency requirements. Especially for the big cities. There's evidence that policing becomes more even handed when police are resident in the community they serve.

How do you implement this in a city with exorbitantly high cost of living?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This.

And there is a world of difference between the one-off moments of unfairness we have all dealt with (I have stories similar to Lio's about being warned/followed by managers/clerks about the store) and the regular, systemic profiling and profound waves of mistrust emanating from others experienced by visible minorities, let alone the many unpleasant incidents of outright prejudice that many if not most minorities experience, way, way more often than non-minorities.

I could go on about the experiences where I had been engaged in a conversation with friends (in English), only to have someone yell "Hein, ici c'est Quebec! Et ici, on parle francais!!". But these are extraordinarily trivial instances, of the sort that most people endure from time to time, that do not merit being included in a thread on racism in Canada.

I suppose but that's still ugly and unacceptable.

[Corndogger]

All four ex-officers face charges as murder count upgraded in George Floyd's death

By Valerie Richardson - The Washington Times - Updated: 5:19 p.m. on Wednesday, June 3, 2020

Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison upgraded Wednesday the murder the charge against one former Minneapolis officer and issued arrest warrants for three others in the death of George Floyd, a case that has ignited mass racial-justice protests and violent rioting nationwide.

The third-degree murder charge filed Friday against Derek Chauvin was replaced with a count of second-degree murder. The other former officers — J. Alexander Kueng, Thomas Lane and Tou Thao — each face charges of aiding and abetting second-degree murder and manslaughter.

The second-degree murder charge carries a maximum penalty of 40 years in prison.

“I want to begin with a reminder and that is, we’re here today because George Floyd is not here,” said Mr. Ellison at a press conference. “He should be here. He should be alive. But he’s not. Nine days ago, the world watched Floyd utter his very last words, ‘I can’t breathe,’ as he pled for his life.”

All four officers were fired shortly after the release of a viral video showing Officer Chauvin kneeling on the neck of Mr. Floyd, 44, for eight minutes and 46 seconds as he lay face-down and handcuffed during an arrest for passing a phony $20 bill on Memorial Day at Cup Foods.

Drew Evans, superintendent of the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, said that one of the officers was in custody and two others were being taken into custody. Mr. Chauvin was arrested Friday.

...

Source: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/3/j-alexander-kueng-thomas-lane-tou-thao-charged-geo/

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It already exists in quite a few municipalities.

For city police?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Of course it does. Police on the ground have a ton of discretion on how they interact with people, whether they decide to arrest them, etc.

Provoke everybody and a certain percent will lash back at you. Then you can beat them a few times and take them in for resisting arrest.

Only a miniscule proportion of everyday crime is related to people taking out their frustrations on cops who are being aggressive with them.

What does the little old lady that you're mugging or raping or killing (and who is stastically extremely likely to be from the same ethno-cultural group as you) have to do with the shitty treatment you're getting from cops?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

For city police?

Yes. And for city employees too.

I believe it's sometimes been challenged in the courts but it does exist.

That's why in very pretty troubled cities you often have an enclave that is generally quite safe and posh and known as "coptown" or something like that.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Only a miniscule proportion of everyday crime is related to people taking out their frustrations on cops who are being aggressive with them.

What does the little old lady that you're mugging or raping or killing (and who is stastically extremely likely to be from the same ethno-cultural group as you) have to do with the shitty treatment you're getting from cops?

So are you saying heavy handed policing does not lead to more crime? Because that was your original question.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm wondering if you know (someone123) whether it's the same in places like a typical Nova Scotia college town (Wolfville?) ... if all the blacks who are there are reasonably wealthy university students coming from outside of town and who have a 0.00% chance of being Crips or Bloods, then locally-tailored police profiling will result in cops leaving them alone all the time. Meanwhile, the local population which is basically all white is where the entirety of the "criminal element" is, so that's who gets profiled.

Yet, how likely is it that this is actually the case? As far as I'm aware, no police force has a top-down data-based directive to racially profile specific groups of citizens - that's usually the result of pervasive biases amongst officers as individuals. And stereotypes of black people as criminals are pretty damn pervasive everywhere in the world (NS in particular has a pretty long history of anti-black racism) - I'd be willing to wager that those wealthy black students are still more likely to be stopped by the police, even if actually less likely to commit a crime than a local white (of course, there's no way to prove this one way or the other).

But again, even if it were the local white people who were being profiled because they have a greater likelihood of committing a crime - why should they be, in all absence of evidence of actually having had committed a crime? "Looking" like a criminal is not evidence of being a criminal, and not a valid reason on its own to stop & search or harass somebody.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Wigs

• Video Link

I have actually had about half those things happen to me.

Some are related to simply being male, others are related to being a francophone with a French-sounding name in Canada.

I am not 100% European in origin but I do look white so I get treated as such.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So are you saying heavy handed policing does not lead to more crime? Because that was your original question.

I am probing here. Lots of people are alleging that aggressive policing leads to more crime.

I admit to having a hard time believing that people commit more robberies, shootings, murders, rapes, assaults, etc. simply because the police are assholes with them.

Curious as to why some of you guys think that would be the case.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am probing here. Lots of people are alleging that aggressive policing leads to more crime.

I admit to having a hard time believing that people commit more robberies, shootings, murders, rapes, assaults, etc. simply because the police are assholes with them.

Curious as to why some of you guys think that would be the case.

It's a long slow generational process, with respect to racism.

You always ask "probing questions" as in, you want everybody else to do the research for you.