The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

I know of at least one: Canada. The 1837 rebels have a holiday honoring them, a bunch of statues and monuments in various towns, and Papineau is considered a hero and has tons of stuff named after him.

(I'm not that familiar with Manitoba but I have the feeling Louis Riel's "loser movement" is nowadays viewed in a positive light. If true then that's another example.)

Originally Posted by milomilo

Guy Fawkes would fit the bill too. Perhaps not to the same extent or in the same way.

Is it the same though? Are Manitobans running around all year with Riel pride and waving his banners? I doubt that many identify with Riel's cause and truly wish he succeeded (as opposed to recognizing the issues the Metis faced). Ditto for Guy Fawkes. People wear masks and pop fireworks in the UK (and some of the Commonwealth). But it's not close to central to British identity the way that the Confederacy still is for many Southerners.

There's also the matter of what these rebellions were asking for. They were all rights for equality or expansion of political rights. None were about the right to subjugate another race of human beings.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So last night my kids offered me some insight into social media channels and groups where young people are very active.

Let's just say that if I were a small business owner in downtown Ottawa on Friday I wouldn't make any other plans other than watching my store.

I suppose that this kind of chatter is happening in every other large city, and that in some cases it leads to mayhem, and it many others it leads to nothing.

One can imagine that trouble-makers are always there in the crowd these days, and they size up the situation and if any opportunities materialize, they jump on them and it snowballs from there. If not, they simply stand down.

In other news, Ottawa mayor Jim Watson will be joining the march on the U.S. embassy in Ottawa on Friday to protest the death of George Floyd and remind our neighbours that black lives matter.

According to the media he has almost never taken part in any protests before, on Canadian or international issues. That's surprising to me if true.

My son went to the demonstration at the Sask Legislature yesterday. He said it was very powerful and everyone was respectful to the leaders of the protest.

On a side note: The person who tagged the war memorial at the legislature was widely condemned by the organizers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

My son went to the demonstration at the Sask Legislature yesterday. He said it was very powerful and everyone was respectful to the leaders of the protest.

On a side note: The person who tagged the war memorial at the legislature was widely condemned by the organizers.

That's good to hear. Often things will go well without any trouble, but it doesn't take much of a spark to send things in the wrong direction.

[JMKeynes]

There is a lot of racism toward Canadian-Italians, though the same is true vis-à-vis Italian-Americans.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Is it the same though? Are Manitobans running around all year with Riel pride and waving his banners? I doubt that many identify with Riel's cause and truly wish he succeeded (as opposed to recognizing the issues the Metis faced). .

You don't think most Métis today wish that a Métis-controlled province or territory had become a reality?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's extremely hard to admit that lefties can be violent extremists too because that side has always been stereotyped as compassionate and morally virtuous. At least in most of the western world (up until very recently), that stereotype was not completely undeserved.

Of course, leftist extremism and nastiness has a long history elsewhere in the world. In this sense our lefties might simply be catching up to the rest of the planet.

The left can be just as violent as the right. But I find bogeyman far too convenient. Screaming "antifa" everytime violence happens with a left-leaning cause is about as ridiculous as yelling "Nazi!" for every scuffle with a right-leaning cause. Anybody resorting to such hyperbole shouldn't be taken be seriously unless they have evidence.

Incidentally, here's the FBI now saying there's no intel that antifa was involved in these riots:

https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-no-i...nd-violence-george-floyd-protests-2020-6

So it does look like a bogeyman to excuse a crackdown. Makes it a lot easier to teargas clergy to have a photo op in front of their church, if you label all protesters as "antifa".

When I read some of the comments and views expressed here I often wonder how many people would have been just as dismissive during the Civil Rights Era. They had riots and looting back then too. White moderates back then argued against protests and even against Civil Rights legislation, lest it "inflame tensions". Thankfully, MLK never listened to them.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You don't think most Métis today wish that a Métis-controlled province or territory had become a reality?

If Manitobans really looked at the ongoing costs to the crown due to the MacDonald Goverment allowing the orange lodge of Ontario to run amok in the Red River Valley, they’d certainly be supportive of a different way of treating Riel and the Métis.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You don't think most Métis today wish that a Métis-controlled province or territory had become a reality?

Wasn't his rebellion about breaking away from Canada?

In any event, is Metis culture that genuinely built over grieving for that loss? If so, then sure, similar to Southern Confederates.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Wasn't his rebellion about breaking away from Canada?

In any event, is Metis culture that genuinely built over grieving for that loss? If so, then sure, similar to Southern Confederates.

No the red river rebellion was about keeping métis rights in Canada. The Hudson‘s Bay Company had just sold Rupert‘s land to Canada and the Métis wanted to be part of the negotiations.
There was much American agitation from Minnesota to annex the region. The Métis wanted no part of American Manifest Destiny.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

I know of at least one: Canada. The 1837 rebels have a holiday honoring them, a bunch of statues and monuments in various towns, and Papineau is considered a hero and has tons of stuff named after him.

(I'm not that familiar with Manitoba but I have the feeling Louis Riel's "loser movement" is nowadays viewed in a positive light. If true then that's another example.)

Newfoundland's commemoration of Beaumont-Hamel strikes me as another one.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

There is a lot of racism toward Canadian-Italians, though the same is true vis-à-vis Italian-Americans.

Maybe fifty years ago ...

[esquire]

I'm not Metis so I'm not speaking on anyone's behalf other than my own, but in my estimation the Red River Metis have always been focused on securing rights and fair treatment for their people. I have never inferred any kind of separatist sentiment or "what might have been" US Confederate States-style wistfulness over the failure to establish a separate sovereign state.

For what it's worth Riel is generally regarded as a key historical leader in Manitoba. I don't think there is much controversy in that regard. When I was younger it was not uncommon to hear people being critical of him, but I think that has changed. Although interestingly there is still at least one prominent historical monument in downtown Winnipeg dedicated to the soldiers who fought against the Metis uprising... my fellow Winnipeggers will know which one I'm talking about.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

No the red river rebellion was about keeping métis rights in Canada. The Hudson‘s Bay Company had just sold Rupert‘s land to Canada and the Métis wanted to be part of the negotiations.
There was much American agitation from Minnesota to annex the region. The Métis wanted no part of American Manifest Destiny.

That jives pretty much with my interpretation as well.

It wasn't really about outright independence for the Métis nor was it about joining the United States.

The high level idea was more about the Métis having their own voice at the burgeoning Canadian table, and not having it submerged in an entity where Métis would be greatly outnumbered and dominated by settlers from Ontario, the British Isles (and later, continental Europe).

Which is exactly what happened of course.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So last night my kids offered me some insight into social media channels and groups where young people are very active.

Let's just say that if I were a small business owner in downtown Ottawa on Friday I wouldn't make any other plans other than watching my store.

Lol - I'm betting they are getting fooled by the same ridiculous signal boosting that caused a ton of big businesses in downtown Toronto to board up their windows the other day. I could be wrong but would feel pretty confident betting the entirety of my bank account next to nothing happens (there may be some actual protesting).

Maybe it's because I spent too much of my formative youth on Something Awful followed by 4chan, but it's incredibly easy to spot how much going on right now is patently fake. In general as smart as this forum is most people are quite bad at disseminating what's happening on the internet. The antifa freakout and bizarre handwringing over Andy Ngo are perfect examples - both featured have been featured on mainstream media sources at face value over the previous years, of course.

Meanwhile there's tons of video and first hand accounts over the past few days of egregious police violence, including multiple deaths, several people losing an eye due to rubber bullets, tear gas fired into a private residence protecting protesters, rubber bullets fired at those providing medical assistance, a senator gassed by police in their own district, a San Diego nurse who was hit in the face with a tear gas canister and in critical condition, multiple instances of police vehicle driving into crowds, shoving down people literally standing on sidewalks, now firing rubber bullets at teens from moving vehicles, and the list goes on and on. Most of this hasn't been shown on anything bigger than local news, either. Hell, I was reading about the death of David McAtee at the hands of police more than 24 hours before it showed up on any mainstream feeds!

Here's a small taste, from a verified account: https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/1267907324540305416?s=20


As for antifa, well, TrueNorth has already covered most of it but they are barely a group. And certainly not one in any traditional sense. Saying this as someone who literally has a couple acquaintances (including a francophone Quebecois!) who would have helped organize direct action during the G20 and subsequent protests and would likely be considered antifa by this forum. And by admission would be anti-fascist organizers.
As a whole some people involved in these things are more extreme than others but there's a huge range of views across those who have taken part in any sort of action. Simply wearing an "Anti-Fascist Action" pin doesn't make you a member of a mythical group. If it did a whole lot of middle aged bartenders and musicians in Toronto would be part of it!

Because all of this happened so quickly it appears there's been minimal organized action on what would traditionally be considered black bloc tactics, but certainly many people normally involved in these things have gone out to protest. Mostly peaceful, though again I'm sure many here would consider things like throwing teargas back at cops to be violent. I'm sure there's been some instances of those who'd consider themselves to be anti-fascist smashing corporate storefronts and such, but the vast majority of looting appears to be opportunistic. Probably also some legitimately violent people which is what happens when things spiral out of control. But also people (including someone I know) who have assisted in distributing food and medical supplies to protesters, organizing cleanup crews in affected neighbourhoods and assisting with funding for affected businesses (I donated to one of these).

The "Antifa is busing in soldiers to ruin (insert x city/town)" is patently ridiculous and again, being signal boosted online and then picked up by those who don't understand what's real and not online. Again, I'm sure there are a small number of people that have traveled to participate but this isn't under some larger banner organization.

But don't take my word for it, the journalist Ken Klippenstein who actually bothers with FOIA requests has dug into this, and also been subject to hundreds of death threats over the past few days: https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/antifa-trump-fbi/

The FBI report, however, states that “based on CHS [Confidential Human Source] canvassing, open source/social media partner engagement, and liaison, FBI WFO has no intelligence indicating Antifa involvement/presence.” The statement followed a list of violent acts like throwing bricks at police and the discovery of a backpack containing explosive materials, which were flagged by the FBI under a “Key Updates” section of the report. The FBI has been issuing such reports daily since the weekend, according to a Bureau source, who added that none of these documents contained any evidence of antifa violence.

Antifa, short for “anti-fascist,” is a type of militant anti-racist, anti-nationalist organizing that does not rely on the justice system to confront the far right. Groups associated with antifa have destroyed property and committed violence in the past, but the fact that the FBI’s situation reports cannot find any evidence of such involvement now suggests that fears about such groups may be exaggerated.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The left can be just as violent as the right. But I find bogeyman far too convenient. Screaming "antifa" everytime violence happens with a left-leaning cause is about as ridiculous as yelling "Nazi!" for every scuffle with a right-leaning cause. Anybody resorting to such hyperbole shouldn't be taken be seriously unless they have evidence.

Incidentally, here's the FBI now saying there's no intel that antifa was involved in these riots:

https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-no-i...nd-violence-george-floyd-protests-2020-6

So it does look like a bogeyman to excuse a crackdown. Makes it a lot easier to teargas clergy to have a photo op in front of their church, if you label all protesters as "antifa".

When I read some of the comments and views expressed here I often wonder how many people would have been just as dismissive during the Civil Rights Era. They had riots and looting back then too. White moderates back then argued against protests and even against Civil Rights legislation, lest it "inflame tensions". Thankfully, MLK never listened to them.

The difference today though is that virtually no one (worth listening to) in the U.S. is saying that the cops involved should get off scot free and that reforms aren't needed in the oversight of police work. Left or right.

What (some) people are objecting to is the notion that a) all police officers are corrupt, brutish pieces of shit and b) that because a) + that the U.S. is somewhere in the neighbourhood of Nazi Germany in its treatment of minorities, c) that any and all types of behaviour are forms of justifiable or at least comprehensible "resistance".

Those last points I just made are basically the flip side of people saying that "all looters should be shot", and which makes you get all irate.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The difference today though is that virtually no one (worth listening to) in the U.S. is saying that the cops involved should get off scot free and that reforms aren't needed in the oversight of police work. Left or right.

What (some) people are objecting to is the notion that a) all police officers are corrupt, brutish pieces of shit and b) that because a) + that the U.S. is somewhere in the neighbourhood of Nazi Germany in its treatment of minorities, c) that any and all types of behaviour are forms of justifiable or at least comprehensible "resistance".

Those last points I just made are basically the flip side of people saying that "all looters should be shot", and which makes you get all irate.

Although surely recent events have (again) demonstrated that too many of them are, even if it's a very small minority. Lot's of anger management issues as well, istm, in their dealings with journalists these last few days.

[goodgrowth]

Has this person ever stepped foot out of Toronto you think?


https://twitter.com/versaceangell/status/1267933611304640520

I guess we gonna pretend that Nova scotia and Newfoundland wasnt built on the backs of carribean slaves ������������♀️

https://twitter.com/versaceangell/status/1267934004835213318

This is the shit they don’t teach you in school. A simple google search will give you alll the information you need about the slave trade in those provinces. Have you ever wondered why so man black Canadians are from those 2 provinces???

Hear that folks? Lots of Black NL'rs...here from our leftover slave colony....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Although surely recent events have (again) demonstrated that too many of them are. Lot's of anger management issues as well, istm, in their dealings with journalists these last few days.

Yep. The last few days have really shown that this is more than just a tiny minority. I wouldn't say it's the majority of police officers. But it's definitely a larger segment than we would have thought.

Arguably, a lot of this is, however, unique to the US. I doubt you can get fired from one department and get hired in another department in Canada, the way the cop who killed 12 year old Tamir Rice did. I haven't heard of non-uniformed cops randomly breaking in to a home and shooting, like what happened to Broenna Taylor. Those kinds of structural issues and utter malpractice may be uniquely American.

The racial justice question though, is probably relevant to Canada. We had the carding controversy in Toronto. We may have legitimate questions on overpolicing First Nations. So it's not like we're entirely immune from this aspect.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The difference today though is that virtually no one (worth listening to) in the U.S. is saying that the cops involved should get off scot free and that reforms aren't needed in the oversight of police work. Left or right.

What (some) people are objecting to is the notion that a) all police officers are corrupt, brutish pieces of shit and b) that because a) + that the U.S. is somewhere in the neighbourhood of Nazi Germany in its treatment of minorities, c) that any and all types of behaviour are forms of justifiable or at least comprehensible "resistance".

Those last points I just made are basically the flip side of people saying that "all looters should be shot", and which makes you get all irate.

Not really sure that analogy works, and aside from a couple people on the Current Events forum imagining things I don't think many people are saying anything like that. Even as an extreme flipside it doesn't really work? Especially considering there's a lot of nuance in those statements:

a)The argument generally is that it doesn't matter if there are "only a few bad apples" so long as the rest of the organization is defending them which is almost always the case. Someone being arrested only after protests or long internal investigations (looking at you, TPS) aren't an example of the system working well. I mean, when we have a batch of tainted meat sent out all of it is recalled and nobody shrugs and says "hey, well most of it's fine so why bother?" One of my wife's good friends in Ottawa is a police officer who I'd consider one of the "good ones", but that doesn't detract from the fact he would be pressured to defend the organization at all costs at risk of being ostracized. Maybe if we had more and more cops coming out against their PDs people would start to take a different view. Taking a knee "in support" of protesters then turning around and teargassing / bashing heads 30 minutes after CNN turned off the cameras (yes, this happened) isn't exactly a good look.

b) Nobody outside of dc_denizen claiming this to be the case is saying that, as far as I can tell. Maybe some factions trying to undermine the basic premise entirely, but never have I heard any real organizer claim the US treats minorities as bad as Nazi Germany. Libs love pulling the Trump/Hitler thing, of course.

c) This is a tough one, and can't be proven or disproven until after the fact. I've tried to make this point before, but characterizing individual events / actions during what's happened over the past couple days into good and bad categories is beyond pointless. What's gone on is an example of what happens when things get out of hand with predictable results. Of course focusing on instances of looting is an excellent sop for those in charge to discredit the whole thing.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Has this person ever stepped foot out of Toronto you think?
Hear that folks? Lots of Black NL'rs...here from our leftover slave colony....

Her tweet was probably referencing the slave ships that were built in NL in the 1700s.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5240589

Or it wasn't. Either way, although the Maritime and Atlantic provinces received freed slaves from the US we also gave them the absolute worst land to develop and grow on and subsequently mistreated them for hundreds of years. We didn't enslave them but we weren't angels, either.