The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Corndogger]

Univ. of Alabama Birmingham professor instructs rioters on how to tear down monuments

A professor at the University of Alabama Birmingham used Twitter to tell protesters how to successfully pull down monuments, as rioters vandalized the Lincoln Memorial, the World War II Memorial and other iconic sites in the nation’s capital over the weekend.

Sarah Parcak, an Egyptologist who specializes in ancient architecture, says she is an expert on obelisks, the shape of the Washington Monument. She noted obelisks “might be masquerading as a racist monument.”

Full story at https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/1/univ-of-alabama-professor-instructs-rioters-on-how/

[Truenorth00]

That obelisk is a Confederate monument. A true oddity since Birmingham didn't exist at the time of the Civil War. You can read the history of it here:

https://www.al.com/news/2020/06/the-hist...damaged-during-george-floyd-protest.html

There's been petitions to remove it before. And the mayor ordered its removal. Which was done last night:

https://www.al.com/news/2020/06/watch-live-birmingham-taking-down-confederate-monument.html

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know Angy Ngo either, but I know the phenomenon.

It goes like:Well, it's sorta wrong that this guy got beaten up but even though he hasn't been violent himself at all nor even incited people to be violent, it's there in the subtext of what he says if you read the coded language between the lines and as a result there are probably lots of people who are inspired by him to commit violence and may even be doing so as we speak. So in that sense, him getting beaten is kind of a necessary step on the road to preventing even more violence that this guy is causing. See it as a pre-emptive strike. You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

It all makes perfect sense if you believe that it's 1933 and this Andy Ngo is a part of the propaganda arm of the Nazi party. Check out the ideological juggling in defence of the attack on Ngo here:

Ngo’s coverage of left-wing protesters is similarly ideological. He views left-wing activists, like Muslim immigrants to the West, as a threat to free and open societies. His reporting plays up acts of vandalism, violence, and hostility to free speech without a comparable focus on the much more frequent and deadly actions of right-wing extremists.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/3/20677645/antifa-portland-andy-ngo-proud-boys

He may very well be dedicated to exposing the perceived iniquities of activities on the left while giving a pass to those on the right, but if you care about a free press then you condemn the violence against him without defending or justifying it, because otherwise you're just an empty partisan shill.

For example, here in Canada we have Ezra Levant, who is a liar, a dishonest propaganda artist and a right wing huckster, and I'm quite convinced that his shenanigans have a demonstrably negative impact on the Canadian body politic. And yet, he has a right to say the utter garbage he says without fear of physical threat.

If Vox and others on the left are interested in counteracting the perceived deleterious effect of Andy Ngo's politics, then they need to condemn that attack on him without justifying it. And if they really want to win over converts to the cause, they need to own the rioters and looters instead of making spurious conspiracy claims about Reichstag fires. Just admit that large mobs can turn ugly while emphasizing that most of the protesters were peaceful. That honesty would be far more convincing than indulging in purity rituals.

[p_xavier]

Only on SSP I see an honest and not polarized discussion. Great way to handle it with nuances and candor!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by rousseau

For example, here in Canada we have Ezra Levant, who is a liar, a dishonest propaganda artist and a right wing huckster, and I'm quite convinced that his shenanigans have a demonstrably negative impact on the Canadian body politic. And yet, he has a right to say the utter garbage he says without fear of physical threat.

As much as I agree with you I have to inquire about the constitutional differences between those south of us and ourselves. Ngo is protected by freedom or speech, whereas Levant is bound by freedom of expression. Surely to some degree Levant violates freedom of expression, and to this extent Levant lost a libel case in 2014 for defaming a muslim law student:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ezr...-he-defamed-as-illiberal-islamic-fascist

As far as I understand it, freedom of speech allows for people like Ngo to exist in the US but freedom of expression prevents people like Levant from existing in Canada. Levant effectively tries to operate under US law in Canada.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Off topic, but it's kinda cool how diverse SSP seems to be, what with people's ethnic identities coming out of the woodwork now and then. At the same time, the anonymous and text-based nature of the forum seems to suggest that our discussions are taking place in a rather idealized context where skin colour and other indelible distinguishing physical features don't matter whatsoever.

I'm not sure about that. I suspect that the vast majority of SSP forumers are white, upper-middle class, male urbanites. Gay men seem to be over-represented in this forum which is understandable, I suppose. One thing I can say for sure is that there is little-to-no diversity of opinion here but then that merely reflects the discourse of the time, our education system and the medium.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Univ. of Alabama Birmingham professor instructs rioters on how to tear down monuments

A professor at the University of Alabama Birmingham used Twitter to tell protesters how to successfully pull down monuments, as rioters vandalized the Lincoln Memorial, the World War II Memorial and other iconic sites in the nation’s capital over the weekend.

Sarah Parcak, an Egyptologist who specializes in ancient architecture, says she is an expert on obelisks, the shape of the Washington Monument. She noted obelisks “might be masquerading as a racist monument.”

Full story at https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/1/univ-of-alabama-professor-instructs-rioters-on-how/

Yet another example of how otherwise intelligent people can completely lose it these days.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

I'm not sure about that. I suspect that the vast majority of SSP forumers are white, upper-middle class, male urbanites. Gay men seem to be over-represented in this forum which is understandable, I suppose. One thing I can say for sure is that there is little-to-no diversity of opinion here but then that merely reflects the discourse of the time, our education system and the medium.

A valid point. We have some (visible) minority posters on here but they tend to be very integrated into our common frame of reference.

Nothing like if we had a conservative Muslim imam. Or even a real conservative Christian.

Heck we do not even hard core Quebec separatists and they are a decent chunk of Canada.

We are basically arguing over whether bacon is better than ham or vice versa.

Imagine arguing whether eating pork is equivalent to eating shit or if you deserve to die for doing it.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by JHikka

As much as I agree with you I have to inquire about the constitutional differences between those south of us and ourselves. Ngo is protected by freedom or speech, whereas Levant is bound by freedom of expression. Surely to some degree Levant violates freedom of expression, and to this extent Levant lost a libel case in 2014 for defaming a muslim law student:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ezr...-he-defamed-as-illiberal-islamic-fascist

As far as I understand it, freedom of speech allows for people like Ngo to exist in the US but freedom of expression prevents people like Levant from existing in Canada. Levant effectively tries to operate under US law in Canada.

I don’t understand the distinction you are making. Is there a source that elaborates on it? The limits on the freedoms differ between the two countries, but both have libel laws.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

One thing I can say for sure is that there is little-to-no diversity of opinion here but then that merely reflects the discourse of the time, our education system and the medium.

Your opinions are pretty whacky, and you're still here. I look forward to your evidence that diversity of opinion was a hallmark of any social grouping anywhere thanks to not being trapped in the terrible ("leftist") discourse of our time.

Originally Posted by Acajack

A valid point. We have some (visible) minority posters on here but they tend to be very integrated into our common frame of reference.

Nothing like if we had a conservative Muslim imam. Or even a real conservative Christian.

Since when have imams, rabbis, priests and pastors ever regularly engaged in discussions with people they don't agree with? Approximately...never?

I'd argue that online forums like this go as far as any in allowing for various viewpoints. The right wing nutters banned from SSP were assholes first and foremost, and given the admitted biases of this forum, the banning of that Stalin-loving Maoist from Winnipeg was the exception that proves the rule: be an asshole, get banned.

Be a conservative who knows how to discuss things without throwing hissy fits and trolling everyone, and you don't get banned.

Acajack, I see the "integration" of visible minority posters within the general political ambiance of SSP to be a triumph over SJW mores. I previously had no idea about the racial and/or ethnic backgrounds of some posters who've lately mentioned those identities, and as such, their opinions have never been approached with that unctuous SJW regard for "who can speak about what based upon the community they identify with." And to be honest, I've already forgotten who they are anyway, so to me they're just anonymous names of Canadians appearing on an internet screen.

I consider that a win.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Your opinions are pretty whacky, and you're still here. I look forward to your evidence that diversity of opinion was a hallmark of any social grouping anywhere thanks to not being trapped in the terrible ("leftist") discourse of our time.


Since when have imams, rabbis, priests and pastors ever regularly engaged in discussions with people they don't agree with? Approximately...never?

I'd argue that online forums like this go as far as any in allowing for various viewpoints. The right wing nutters banned from SSP were assholes first and foremost, and given the admitted biases of this forum, the banning of that Stalin-loving Maoist from Winnipeg was the exception that proves the rule: be an asshole, get banned.

Be a conservative who knows how to discuss things without throwing hissy fits and trolling everyone, and you don't get banned.

Acajack, I see the "integration" of visible minority posters within the general political ambiance of SSP to be a triumph over SJW mores. I previously had no idea about the racial and/or ethnic backgrounds of some posters who've lately mentioned those identities, and as such, their opinions have never been approached with that unctuous SJW regard for "who can speak about what based upon the community they identify with." And to be honest, I've already forgotten who they are anyway, so to me they're just anonymous names of Canadians appearing on an internet screen.

I consider that a win.

Actually right now I am not actually saying we would not allow those more radical viewpoints (that is another debate) but simply that they are not here.

It does not make us better or worse.

Maybe lucky though?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That obelisk is a Confederate monument. A true oddity since Birmingham didn't exist at the time of the Civil War. You can read the history of it here

Hard not to see that as racist.

[Truenorth00]

I've been wondering what makes the US policing problem so different from the rest of the developed world. You could say it's guns. But we just saw an unarmed man killed. You could say it's racism, but many countries have their issues with racism. We don't have officers killing First Nations on a weekly basis in Canada. One emerging theory is how much police unions are empowered in the US. And how political they've become. Conservatives are coming around to this view too:

https://reason.com/2020/05/30/police-unions-and-the-problem-of-police-misconduct/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/g...us-on-police-unions-protecting-bad-cops/

It's curious that we don't have such powerful police unions in Canada. I've seen thin blue line stickers around town. But nowhere near as prevalent as the US.

[Acajack]

If only for the fact it represents non-apathy, I was heartened by how many social media friends took part in blackout Tuesday. Many I did not see as politically active much less interested in racial justice.

Of course some of it is simply the bandwagon.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Hard not to see that as racist.

A lot of Confederate monuments in the South were set up long after the Civil War. Most during the Jim Crow era. And some in the 50s and 60s. A full century after. Many were installed to intimidate African-Americans and as an act of defiance against integration.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880...lt-to-further-a-white-supremacist-future

It's always been interesting how much some Americans glorify what was effectively a traitorous, racist movement that lost. They have actual associations to trace lineage back, like Daughters of the Confederacy, which fundraised for many of the monuments. I don't know of any other country where a loser movement is celebrated like this.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

I'm not sure about that. I suspect that the vast majority of SSP forumers are white, upper-middle class,h male urbanites. Gay men seem to be over-represented in this forum which is understandable, I suppose. One thing I can say for sure is that there is little-to-no diversity of opinion here but then that merely reflects the discourse of the time, our education system and the medium.

Compared to just about every other online forum, you’re wrong.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I studied Canadian society and history in high school and university (where I was in a social sciences and humanities field), and the latter period was when I met the multi-generational Chinese-Canadian from the Prairies. He was not a fellow student. He was in the army with a friend of mine.

Note that all of that schooling was in the ROC (outside Quebec), and about half of my elementary and high school was in English. University was all in English.

I recall some discussion of Ukrainian homesteading on the Prairies, and references to Chinese labourers working on the railway. In the latter case there wasn't much said about whether they stuck around or not.

Had I been in Quebec we no doubt would have learned even less about that stuff.

Though my kids are in school in Quebec and they did learn about these topics (Ukrainian homesteaders, Chinese railway workers), but it's not very in-depth.

My observation as a parent is that there isn't that much time devoted to history, and lots of stuff to cover. And unlike most places (not just the US, *most* countries in the world), there isn't much if any popular culture and societal reinforcement that augments generalized historical knowledge. (As I always say: Quebec is a bit better at that, but it usually only focuses on Quebec.)

One of the few things I still remember from High School was one year we were the first class on a new curriculum that introduced for that grade and the focus was the pacific rim. This is in the early 90s. The teacher made a point of pointing out that that year we had new text books and everything was Pacific centrist. The maps had all changed so the pacific ocean was in the center of the map s instead of the Atlantic etc.

That did make sense for BC. It did provide a different perspective. Given the geography of where Quebec is located I could see it being the Atlantic continuing to the the focus.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I've been wondering what makes the US policing problem so different from the rest of the developed world. You could say it's guns. But we just saw an unarmed man killed. You could say it's racism, but many countries have their issues with racism. We don't have officers killing First Nations on a weekly basis in Canada. One emerging theory is how much police unions are empowered in the US. And how political they've become. Conservatives are coming around to this view too:

https://reason.com/2020/05/30/police-unions-and-the-problem-of-police-misconduct/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/g...us-on-police-unions-protecting-bad-cops/

It's curious that we don't have such powerful police unions in Canada. I've seen thin blue line stickers around town. But nowhere near as prevalent as the US.

I will toss in a few observations. I say that because I don't have a good theory of why or how they impact the difference but I am certain they do.

The US has a "town sheriff" culture. Every town has its own police force. They all have independent in how they are formed and operate. That likely results in more inconsistency. In Western Canada, the RCMP was the police force. In some cares the sheriff is an elected position. That provides for a more cohesive and consistent policing strategy in Canada.

We as a nation don't worship our military in the same way as the US. We still respect our military but its not the same as the US.

Canada is a more pragmatic country. We are less likely to stick to the letter of the law and more likely to look at what the intent was. That means some people are more likely to get off

Our police forces exercise judgment.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Didn't that happen a few days ago? It's obvious extremists on both the left and right are behind most of the violence. When this is all over with Antifa will be exposed as the biggest culprit. They've done more than enough over the last five years or so that it's not that hard to identify when they are the ones behind a certain incident. People on the left on social media along with totally biased CNN, NBC, etc. are also trying to pin blame on white supremacist groups for Antifa acts because they know the general public has no idea of who Antifa is. And others will claim there's "no proof" that they are Antifa because Antifa doesn't have a HQ.

If you're open-minded and want more info on Antifa I suggest watching this YouTube video from 2017.

• Video Link

This is a thread about the real issue of racism in Canada. Stop trying to turn it into an Antifa fear-mongering thread, which is completely peripheral to the topic at hand. It sounds to me like you are complaining about people that are complaining about racism.

Oh, who is hosting the video?

Steven Blake Crowder is an American-Canadian conservative political commentator, comedian and YouTuber. He hosts the YouTube channel and podcast Louder with Crowder, where he gives his opinion on sociopolitical issues in the U.S and their solutions. He is also a former contributor at Fox News.

In June 2019, Crowder's YouTube videos were investigated over his repeated use of racist and homophobic slurs to describe journalist Carlos Maza.The channel was not suspended, with YouTube saying, "the videos as posted don't violate our policies" while also demonetizing the account.

Of course you would complain about NBC News and uphold far right garbage.

Maybe I should repost the above in a manner that emulates your posting style.

Steven Blake Crowder is an American-Canadian conservative political commentator, comedian and YouTuber. He hosts the YouTube channel and podcast Louder with Crowder, where he gives his opinion on sociopolitical issues in the U.S and their solutions. He is also a former contributor at Fox News.

In June 2019, Crowder's YouTube videos were investigated over his repeated use of racist and homophobic slurs to describe journalist Carlos Maza.The channel was not suspended, with YouTube saying, "the videos as posted don't violate our policies" while also demonetizing the account.

It is shameful that you would be peddling this stuff. In a thread about the racism experienced by Black Canadians. What the hell is the matter with you?

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's always been interesting how much some Americans glorify what was effectively a traitorous, racist movement that lost. They have actual associations to trace lineage back, like Daughters of the Confederacy, which fundraised for many of the monuments. I don't know of any other country where a loser movement is celebrated like this.

I'd argue that the only difference between George Washington and Robert E Lee is that Lee lost.