The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. And what evidence is there that looters today are affiliated with them?

Looters are less likely to be Antifa - folks affiliated with Antifa are the ones throwing objects at police, starting fights, and tagging buildings. There's plenty of videos online of white people in all-black spraypainting things like 'Burn the Banks', smashing the windows, and then leaving. They're oftentimes being confronted by protesters for these actions. Antifa are less about fighting fascism and more about creating anarchy and anarcho-marxism. Within all of this are white supremacists causing similar issues with similar actions to make the black protesters look bad publicly.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Looters, no.

Yet it's the looters who are conflated with antifa to justify the insitutional violence and/or dismissal of peaceful protests.

Originally Posted by Acajack

But people attacking institutions and police directly? It's almost certain that there are more than a few of them in there.

Few? Maybe. Most of them? Doubt it. I see a lot of people who legitimately dislike cops and are lashing out. Given the tensions in the US, I can see most minorities and even poorer whites having plenty of antipathy towards police officers.

Originally Posted by Acajack

This thing doesn't have a membership card, not that anyone could check it in the middle of a riot.

We are able to figure out the leadership structures and centres of gravity for all kinds of domestic and transnational terrorist and criminal groups. Even when they are loosely affiliated. Why is it, this seems impossible to do for authorities on "antifa"? I don't ever see announcement of the identification of local leaders who organized protests or promoted violence. Etc. That is what has me saying this seems exaggerated.

Originally Posted by Acajack

(BTW I am actually a strong critic of the contemporary capitalist system. Just so you know.)

For the record, I actually think looters should be tracked down and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I have some strong reservations about using looters as an excuse to crack down on peaceful protests. That seems very undemocratic. And there seems to be far too much of that going around these days.

[niwell]

If we're talking about the G20, the police committed exponentially more violence than Black Bloc anarchists did through targeted smashing of corporate windows and burning of carefully abandoned (and strangely outdated) police cars in Toronto. Remember, that's what everyone was calling them back then, not Antifa. By the same token more windows were probably smashed by opportunists getting caught up in what was happening. More than a few were smashed by undercover cops, too... Funnily enough, when you ask the opinion of most people who were there during G20, the main memory is the gross overreaction of police.

At the end of the day I think it's somewhat pointless to look at events like what's going on and overly dissecting what actions/groups/events are "good" and which are "bad". In any protest action that turns into a riot there are going to be opportunists, there is going to be looting and there are people who are going to be angry on all sides. Protest actions are planned, but riots almost always aren't and evolve from the situation dependent on any number of factors. It's more important in my mind to look at why this all started in the first place, keeping in mind that no matter how "peaceful" they remain, there are still going to be people complaining it's not being done the "right way" which is easily enough exploited to justify any number of crackdowns.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exact same thing with the supplier we chose out of a few (a local businessman who was highly recommended to us by a large multinational Quebec corp we have close ties with - and they were totally right about him and his company). Ethnic Chinese guy, no accent, Anglo first name, and as time passed we eventually chatted enough that I learned his family (great-grandparents IIRC) came here to build the railway. So he's as Old Stock Vancouverite as they come. I found that interesting.

It's a failure of the education system that the average Canadian who's graduated doesn't recognize at least the general waves of immigration we've had in this country.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Presumably if those far-right dudes are masquerading as antifa, then the aggressive response will scoop them up as well. Unless we think that cops will be in cahoots and not touch them but go after everyone else?

The idea that someone would be able to do that would require a pretty high degree of conspiracy theorizing.

There have been arrests of white nationalists in relation to arson and other riot crimes.

Think about the attack on the CNN headquarters in Atlanta. Literally the #1 lightning rod that Trump uses to blather about fake news. It's not rocket science to assume that far right individuals use or directed the mob to that specific building.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It's a failure of the education system that the average Canadian who's graduated doesn't recognize at least the general waves of immigration we've had in this country.

In Vancouver it's pretty visible since there's still old Chinatown stuff from circa 1900.

At one point around 1900 Chinese immigration spread all around Canada. I am not sure how substantial the demographics were but you could find Chinese laundries or restaurants in all kinds of towns and cities around the country in 1910.

Lebanese immigration back to the 1800's as well.

I find a lot of anti-racist or feminist content today really undersells how much the world had progressed in past decades. It's very strange. For example, you might read a #MeToo type essay where somebody suggests that in 1997 women were tentatively entering the workforce and suffering rampant sexual harassment that everybody was okay with. Even though these causes might be just, it's still important to get the history at least somewhat right...

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Speaking of which I've always found it weird that people have an issue with those who oppose fascism.

Antifa are against fascism like North Korea is a democratic republic. It's just a word.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Antifa are against fascism like North Korea is a democratic republic. It's just a word.

It is always hard to talk about groups of people who have diverse opinions.

To me the Andy Ngo controversy in Portland was a good test. There was a video of him getting beaten up and he ended up in the hospital (probably the first thing that will pop up in Google). The responses from this fell largely into 2 camps:

1) Punching people in the head and giving them a brain hemorrhage is not acceptable.
2) You have to understand that Andy Ngo is a right-wing extremist journalist who tries to stir the pot! Maybe those milkshakes had cement in them, maybe not, wink wink.

I lost some respect for people whenever I heard (2) from them. I don't really know who Andy Ngo is but the bottom line is I don't think there is anything Andy Ngo could tweet about that justifies having a mob descend on him, punch him in the head, and throw stuff at him.

And I find Portland has a lot of (2) people. It creeps me out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is always hard to talk about groups of people who have diverse opinions.

To me the Andy Ngo controversy in Portland was a good test. There was a video of him getting beaten up and he ended up in the hospital (probably the first thing that will pop up in Google). The responses from this fell largely into 2 camps:

1) Punching people in the head and giving them a brain hemorrhage is not acceptable.
2) You have to understand that Andy Ngo is a right-wing extremist journalist who tries to stir the pot! Maybe those milkshakes had cement in them, maybe not, wink wink.

I lost some respect for people whenever I heard (2) from them. I don't really know who Andy Ngo is but the bottom line is I don't think there is anything Andy Ngo could tweet about that justifies having a mob descend on him, punch him in the head, and throw stuff at him.

And I find Portland has a lot of (2) people. It creeps me out.

I don't know Angy Ngo either, but I know the phenomenon.

It goes like:Well, it's sorta wrong that this guy got beaten up but even though he hasn't been violent himself at all nor even incited people to be violent, it's there in the subtext of what he says if you read the coded language between the lines and as a result there are probably lots of people who are inspired by him to commit violence and may even be doing so as we speak. So in that sense, him getting beaten is kind of a necessary step on the road to preventing even more violence that this guy is causing. See it as a pre-emptive strike. You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Think about the attack on the CNN headquarters in Atlanta. Literally the #1 lightning rod that Trump uses to blather about fake news. It's not rocket science to assume that far right individuals use or directed the mob to that specific building.

"White nationalists" of the "far right" besieging CNN Center in Atlanta:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yve9DhT8Nt4&t=19s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD4ZwoD9ARQ&t=27s

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It's a failure of the education system that the average Canadian who's graduated doesn't recognize at least the general waves of immigration we've had in this country.

I studied Canadian society and history in high school and university (where I was in a social sciences and humanities field), and the latter period was when I met the multi-generational Chinese-Canadian from the Prairies. He was not a fellow student. He was in the army with a friend of mine.

Note that all of that schooling was in the ROC (outside Quebec), and about half of my elementary and high school was in English. University was all in English.

I recall some discussion of Ukrainian homesteading on the Prairies, and references to Chinese labourers working on the railway. In the latter case there wasn't much said about whether they stuck around or not.

Had I been in Quebec we no doubt would have learned even less about that stuff.

Though my kids are in school in Quebec and they did learn about these topics (Ukrainian homesteaders, Chinese railway workers), but it's not very in-depth.

My observation as a parent is that there isn't that much time devoted to history, and lots of stuff to cover. And unlike most places (not just the US, *most* countries in the world), there isn't much if any popular culture and societal reinforcement that augments generalized historical knowledge. (As I always say: Quebec is a bit better at that, but it usually only focuses on Quebec.)

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"White nationalists" of the "far right" besieging CNN Center in Atlanta:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yve9DhT8Nt4&t=19s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD4ZwoD9ARQ&t=27s

You understand what instigating means right?

I'm just speculating of course. But why would CNN in particular be a target?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know Angy Ngo either, but I know the phenomenon.

It goes like:Well, it's sorta wrong that this guy got beaten up but even though he hasn't been violent himself at all nor even incited people to be violent, it's there in the subtext of what he says if you read the coded language between the lines and as a result there are probably lots of people who are inspired by him to commit violence and may even be doing so as we speak. So in that sense, him getting beaten is kind of a necessary step on the road to preventing even more violence that this guy is causing. See it as a pre-emptive strike. You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

If we are being honest this largely boils down to "I punched him because he made me mad", which is something you are supposed to be taught is wrong when you are 4 or 5 years old.

Left-wing groups have a real problem with tolerance for hazy boundaries between physical violence and abuse vs. healthy conflict or mere differences in opinion.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You understand what instigating means right?

I'm just speculating of course. But why would CNN in particular be a target?

Because mobs are dumb.

A mob is no smarter than its dumbest member. So, CNN (big media is evil, remember) - despite probably being the most sympathetic voice to the protesters - is an acceptable target.

Peaceful protests = protesters win
Angry mob = the establishment/police win

Mobs don't get that concept though, because they're not smart enough to think strategically. Since they've no organized leadership, they have no brains.

That's why leadership was necessary during the Civil Rights struggle. It prevented the worst excesses of mob mentality and gave them a legitimate face and voice.

But hey, if you don't really want change, huck bricks at the cops or through plate glass windows of businesses.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is always hard to talk about groups of people who have diverse opinions.

To me the Andy Ngo controversy in Portland was a good test. There was a video of him getting beaten up and he ended up in the hospital (probably the first thing that will pop up in Google). The responses from this fell largely into 2 camps:

1) Punching people in the head and giving them a brain hemorrhage is not acceptable.
2) You have to understand that Andy Ngo is a right-wing extremist journalist who tries to stir the pot! Maybe those milkshakes had cement in them, maybe not, wink wink.

I lost some respect for people whenever I heard (2) from them. I don't really know who Andy Ngo is but the bottom line is I don't think there is anything Andy Ngo could tweet about that justifies having a mob descend on him, punch him in the head, and throw stuff at him.

And I find Portland has a lot of (2) people. It creeps me out.

Portland is an Antifa hotbed. YouTube and especially Twitter are full of videos of very violent acts they've committed. You're not going to get the truth from very liberal NBC news.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by wave46

Mobs don't get that concept though, because they're not smart enough to think strategically. Since they've no organized leadership, they have no brains.

That's why leadership was necessary during the Civil Rights struggle. It prevented the worst excesses of mob mentality and gave them a legitimate face and voice.

But hey, if you don't really want change, huck bricks at the cops or through plate glass windows of businesses.

If you do really want change then you are basically putting on a performance to shift society-wide opinion. If the police or military are seen oppressing nonviolent protesters they will lose support. If on balance it seems like the protesters are the bad guys, they lose support.

The protesters can never win a direct physical battle with the US military. If the military wanted to (hopefully it never comes to anything like this at all) they could go in and kill large numbers of protesters very easily. Morality and pressure for the US government to save face and keep public support is all the protesters have.

Unfortunately one factor here is that BLM has historically been unclear about their goals. "End racism" is not a clear goal, even though racism may exist and ending it is desirable. The Montgomery Bus Boycott had a very clear goal to change a specific set of discriminatory policies.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Portland is an Antifa hotbed. YouTube and especially Twitter are full of videos of very violent acts they've committed. You're not going to get the truth from very liberal NBC news.

Since we're on this subject, Twitter today shut down a white supremacist group posing as Antifa on Twitter, which was calling for violence.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-fake-antifa-acount-white-supremacists-removal/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

If we are being honest this largely boils down to "I punched him because he made me mad", which is something you are supposed to be taught is wrong when you are 4 or 5 years old.

Left-wing groups have a real problem with tolerance for hazy boundaries between physical violence and abuse vs. healthy conflict or mere differences in opinion.

And yet people want us to believe that antifa (or any reasonable facsimiles) are a figment of people's imagination. Or at least maybe just a handful of losers in their parents' basements.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Since we're on this subject, Twitter today shut down a white supremacist group posing as Antifa on Twitter, which was calling for violence.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-fake-antifa-acount-white-supremacists-removal/

Didn't that happen a few days ago? It's obvious extremists on both the left and right are behind most of the violence. When this is all over with Antifa will be exposed as the biggest culprit. They've done more than enough over the last five years or so that it's not that hard to identify when they are the ones behind a certain incident. People on the left on social media along with totally biased CNN, NBC, etc. are also trying to pin blame on white supremacist groups for Antifa acts because they know the general public has no idea of who Antifa is. And others will claim there's "no proof" that they are Antifa because Antifa doesn't have a HQ.

If you're open-minded and want more info on Antifa I suggest watching this YouTube video from 2017.

• Video Link

[Corndogger]

This NYC cop went off script. We'll never see this footage on national media.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1267929131045384192