The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know that exists to a significant degree but my impression is that it's very confined to blue collar and lower class circles.

My inner entourage is very predominantly white collar Québécois and to be perfectly honest I never hear comments like that. Quebec being Quebec there is less of the Canadian Koolaid Immigrant Love-In here like you get in similar demographics in, say, Toronto. Or even Ottawa. People do express views about immigrants making an effort to fit in (or not), about how we should be (more, perhaps) selective about who we let in, and about behaviour in general, but in terms of stealing jobs or even going back where they came from... that's not something I hear.

As I said, it's definitely out there I know but even the people who have those views keep them to themselves around people like me. And probably only discuss them among the like-minded.

I'm not saying that sentiment doesn't exist in Manitoba because it does, but I think there is fairly broad recognition that we'd be in deep shit here without a steady flow of immigrants. As such immigrants are generally given a pretty warm reception (although it goes without saying that there are exceptions).

If you hear any antipathy expressed towards people from other countries, it tends to be aimed at refugees. Most of whom, let's face it, are non-white. I don't consider that OK at all and thankfully it's very limited, but the point is that there isn't really much backlash against immigrants in general. Really no one outside the most hardcore bigots is pissed off about their doctor from Ghana, the truck driver from India or the nurse from the Philippines.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've actually had some really interesting discussions and found out cool and important stuff by being curious.

For example, when I was much younger I met this Chinese-Canadian fellow from Alberta who was totally indistinguishable from your average Anglo-Canadian. His family had been in Canada for many, many generations. This was the early 1990s. Until then I had never realized that this country had people of Chinese origin going back to the 19th century.

A non-curious person might simply assume that his parents had moved to Canada from Hong Kong in the 1980s or something.

Exact same thing with the supplier we chose out of a few (a local businessman who was highly recommended to us by a large multinational Quebec corp we have close ties with - and they were totally right about him and his company). Ethnic Chinese guy, no accent, Anglo first name, and as time passed we eventually chatted enough that I learned his family (great-grandparents IIRC) came here to build the railway. So he's as Old Stock Vancouverite as they come. I found that interesting.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not saying that sentiment doesn't exist in Manitoba because it does, but I think there is fairly broad recognition that we'd be in deep shit here without a steady flow of immigrants. As such immigrants are generally given a pretty warm reception (although it goes without saying that there are exceptions).

If you hear any antipathy expressed towards people from other countries, it tends to be aimed at refugees. Most of whom, let's face it, are non-white. I don't consider that OK at all and thankfully it's very limited, but the point is that there isn't really much backlash against immigrants in general. Really no one outside the most hardcore bigots is pissed off about their doctor from Ghana, the truck driver from India or the nurse from the Philippines.

Things were pretty good in Canada right now economically (er, until about March, I should say), our immigration is multi-sourced, and tends to get us the most motivated of immigrants.

So, it makes it hard to stereotype immigrants as being one ethnicity and/or lazy. They're the ones driving truck, or making coffee or cleaning hotel rooms - thankless jobs. They're also involved in the cream of the crop positions too as we're getting the most motivated of them.

The backlash happens for a few reasons:

1. There's an overwhelming sole-source nature of immigration (see: Hispanics in the US, from the Middle East in Europe).

2. There's no avenue for immigrants to become citizens, so one ends up with 3rd and 4th generation immigrants who are still effectively ostracized from the country at large (see: many European countries).

3. The immigration appears to be uncontrolled. We've the good fortune to be far from human migrations - whereas Europe and the US don't have that luxury. We don't have thousands of illegal immigrants showing up per year for years. By controlling immigration, anyone who wants to get in has to jump through the hoops we make for them which is quite a barrier - only the most motivated will be get through that process.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by rousseau

We're typing stuff and we're only getting judged by the contents of our characters.

I love puns. Keep 'em coming.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've actually had some really interesting discussions and found out cool and important stuff by being curious.

For example, when I was much younger I met this Chinese-Canadian fellow from Alberta who was totally indistinguishable from your average Anglo-Canadian. His family had been in Canada for many, many generations. This was the early 1990s. Until then I had never realized that this country had people of Chinese origin going back to the 19th century.

A non-curious person might simply assume that his parents had moved to Canada from Hong Kong in the 1980s or something.

There was a wave of Chinese immigrants in that time period who came to Canada to help build the railway. By our standards today they had very dangerous jobs and were very poorly treated when it came to being able to reunify their families. One of the reason you find Chinese restaurants in many smaller prairie communities.

Vancouver Island is also an interesting one for Chinese immigration. There was a group of Carpenters (ship builders) from Macao that settled in Nutka sound in 1780s. They likely intermarried into first nations communities.

In BC one of the very first European settlers in BC is "Portuguese Joe" who intermarried into the Shishalh first nations in the 1850s and now there are over 500 descendants.

I am second generation Portuguese and nearly everyone of my generation has married someone of a different race. There kids are now marring and it is the same. How would you classify someone who is "Portuguese-First Nations-Philippine-Chinese"? Does that qualify as a visible minority? Should they qualify as a status first nations?

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know that exists to a significant degree but my impression is that it's very confined to blue collar and lower class circles.

Very true. Most of the situations where this has occurred has been with people similar to what you describe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Off topic, but it's kinda cool how diverse SSP seems to be, what with people's ethnic identities coming out of the woodwork now and then. At the same time, the anonymous and text-based nature of the forum seems to suggest that our discussions are taking place in a rather idealized context where skin colour and other indelible distinguishing physical features don't matter whatsoever.

We're typing stuff and we're only getting judged by the contents of our characters.

There are also no accents on here and no one is handicapped by sub-standard written English. In theory at least, that leaves most of the world's population outside the club, and even a sizeable chunk of Canada's population too.

As open and diverse as this virtual place is, it's still a "club" of sorts.

[Truenorth00]

Like I've said before there are some groups taking advantage of the chaos to fan the flames. So much for that "antifa" bullshit:

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/tw...est-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456

Turns out that white nationalists are posing as "antifa" and trying to both incite violence and instill fear of hoardes of coloreds coming to ravage middle America.

We aren't as far gone as the US. And hopefully never end up there. But at some point we need to discuss how social media can be used to inflame social tensions.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Like I've said before there are some groups taking advantage of the chaos to fan the flames. So much for that "antifa" bullshit:

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/tw...est-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456

Turns out that white nationalists are posing as "antifa" and trying to both incite violence and instill fear of hoardes of coloreds coming to ravage middle America.

We aren't as far gone as the US. And hopefully never end up there. But at some point we need to discuss how social media can be used to inflame social tensions.

Not sure about "antifa bullshit". It's no more "all alt-right" than it is "all antifa.

There are so many layers of complexity on this it's unbelievable.

Judging from the videos I am seeing of rioting and looting, some of these white nationalists must be masters of disguise!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure about "antifa bullshit". It's no more "all alt-right" than it is "all antifa.

There are so many layers of complexity on this it's unbelievable.

Judging from the videos I am seeing of rioting and looting, some of these white nationalists must be masters of disguise!

Yes, there's garden level rioters taking advantage of the situation. But that does not make every protester or even every rioter "antifa". But now we have actual evidence that this is just a built up bogeyman to provide cover for an aggressive response. Good way to delegitimize peaceful protestors through by associating them and their cause with some mythical organized far left terror group.


"We're not bashing protesters. We're fighting antifa."

Speaking of which I've always found it weird that people have an issue with those who oppose fascism.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes, there's garden level rioters taking advantage of the situation. But that does not make every protester or even every rioter "antifa". But now we have actual evidence that this is just a built up bogeyman to provide cover for an aggressive response. Good way to delegitimize peaceful protestors through by associating them and their cause with some mythical organized far left terror group.


"We're not bashing protesters. We're fighting antifa."
.

Presumably if those far-right dudes are masquerading as antifa, then the aggressive response will scoop them up as well. Unless we think that cops will be in cahoots and not touch them but go after everyone else?

The idea that someone would be able to do that would require a pretty high degree of conspiracy theorizing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Speaking of which I've always found it weird that people have an issue with those who oppose fascism.

It's perfectly normal to have an issue with obsessive people who are violent extremists who see fascism on every corner and in their Alpha-Bits in the morning, and act aggressively with everyone as a result.

All forms of extremism are dangerous.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Speaking of which I've always found it weird that people have an issue with those who oppose fascism.

Antifa has their own agenda though, and are no friends of democracy and freedom of speech.

By and large, Antifa are violent extremists in their own right and anarchists. They are just as despicable as the fascists

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Presumably if those far-right dudes are masquerading as antifa, then the aggressive response will scoop them up as well. Unless we think that cops will be in cahoots and not touch them but go after everyone else?

Cops certainly didn't show the same aggressiveness with armed protestors storming legislatures in the US. Or the evidence that social distancing arrests were vastly disproportionately African-American (35 of 40 arrests):

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/nyregion/nypd-social-distancing-race-coronavirus.html

So yes, I do think there's some selective enforcement on their part. Which is, of course, part of the frustration.....

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Cops certainly didn't show the same aggressiveness with armed protestors storming legislatures in the US. Or the evidence that social distancing arrests were vastly disproportionately African-American:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/nyregion/nypd-social-distancing-race-coronavirus.html

So yes, I do think there's some selective enforcement on their part. Which is, of course, part of the frustration.....

And what if those legislature protests happened today?

Everything is about context. Taking a plane with an exacto box cutter in your briefcase on Sept. 10, 2001 was not the same as doing it on Sept. 12, 2001.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's perfectly normal to have an issue with obsessive people who are violent extremists who see fascism on every corner and in their Alpha-Bits in the morning, and act aggressively with everyone as a result.

All forms of extremism are dangerous.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Antifa has their own agenda though, and are no friends of democracy and freedom of speech.

By and large, Antifa are violent extremists in their own right and anarchists. They are just as despicable as the fascists

Sure. But how much of this is real and how much is made up bogeyman?

Where is the antifa HQ? Who are their main voices and movement leaders? How is membership defined? What are their goals? You can answer questions like this for every other anarchist group. Right or left. Yet somehow for all the scaremongering about antifa, nobody can answer these questions for them. That is what makes them more bogeyman than real terror group.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And what if those legislature protests happened today?

Zero consequences if the protesters are white guys. I'd bet money on it.

This isn't even all that controversial in the US. The, NRA for crying out loud, supported gun control in California when Black Panthers started marching and holding rallies open carrying guns.

https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. But how much of this is real and how much is made up bogeyman?

Where is the antifa HQ? Who are their main voices and movement leaders? How is membership defined? What are their goals? You can answer questions like this for every other anarchist group. Right or left. Yet somehow for all the scaremongering about antifa, nobody can answer these questions for them. That is what makes them more bogeyman than real terror group.

I am not advocating labelling them a terror group, but a bogeyman?

You don't remember the violence in Quebec City, Toronto, Seattle?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not advocating labelling them a terror group, but a bogeyman?

You don't remember the violence in Quebec City, Toronto, Seattle?

Sure. And what evidence is there that looters today are affiliated with them?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. And what evidence is there that looters today are affiliated with them?

Looters, no.

But people attacking institutions and police directly? It's almost certain that there are more than a few of them in there. This thing doesn't have a membership card, not that anyone could check it in the middle of a riot.

(BTW I am actually a strong critic of the contemporary capitalist system. Just so you know.)