The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I tend to agree with this but there are still things that make you shake your head.

When I was in my early 20s I had a black girlfriend who lived in Ottawa and she reported having been followed a few times by police. As in driving home from university classes in her mom's Ford Tempo at 9 pm with her girlfriends in the car. On a few occasions stopped by cops asking them where they're coming from, what they're doing, what they're up to.

It only happened a few times between the time she was 18 to 21 (when I started going out with her) but it still strikes me as fishy - even if it only happened twice.

It's never happened to me in my 50 years on this earth. Never in Ottawa or anywhere else in the world. And I've been to about 50 countries. I've also been out at all hours, in cars, walking around, on transit. Sometimes drunk. Sometimes alone or with other people. Never.

Never happened to my wife either.

Your pretty lucky then.

In Japan as a visible foreigner random stops by the police is pretty regular, and you must show your residents card upon request (must bring it with you at all times).

My friend at 6 foot 5 is a particularly good magnet for them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Your pretty lucky then.

In Japan as a visible foreigner random stops by the police is pretty regular, and you must show your residents card upon request (must bring it with you at all times).

My friend at 6 foot 5 is a particularly good magnet for them.

Japan is a pretty exceptional case, though.

I've definitely been a "visible" minority as a Euro-looking person before, and in most such places in the world you're generally left alone or at least respected, when you look like I do. At least by the authorities. You can sometimes be a target for crime of course as you are assumed to be rich.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Japan is a pretty exceptional case, though.

I've definitely been a "visible" minority as a Euro-looking person before, and in most such places in the world you're generally left alone or at least respected, when you look like I do. At least by the authorities. You can sometimes be a target for crime of course as you are assumed to be rich.

From what I have heard the experience is pretty much the same if not even more intrusive by police in China and Korea.

As a target for crime, that I don’t worry about here. Just avoid the yakuza and you should be fine.

I feel your world experiences are different than mine simply due to which side of the world outside of Canada we happen to frequent.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

From what I have heard the experience is pretty much the same if not even more intrusive by police in China and Korea.

As a target for crime, that I don’t worry about here. Just avoid the yakuza and you should be fine.

I feel your world experiences are different than mine simply due to which side of the world outside of Canada we happen to frequent.

Oh yeah, that's definitely true!

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I tend to agree with this but there are still things that make you shake your head.

When I was in my early 20s I had a black girlfriend who lived in Ottawa and she reported having been followed a few times by police. As in driving home from university classes in her mom's Ford Tempo at 9 pm with her girlfriends in the car. On a few occasions stopped by cops asking them where they're coming from, what they're doing, what they're up to.

It only happened a few times between the time she was 18 to 21 (when I started going out with her) but it still strikes me as fishy - even if it only happened twice.

It's never happened to me in my 50 years on this earth. Never in Ottawa or anywhere else in the world. And I've been to about 50 countries. I've also been out at all hours, in cars, walking around, on transit. Sometimes drunk. Sometimes alone or with other people. Never.

Never happened to my wife either.

Yep, and this is the thing. It happens to black people regularly. All of my black friends and associates have recounted episodes that echo the OP.

And my wife (Asian) has plenty of examples of being on the receiving end of prejudice (she grew up in Sudbury, where minorities, aside from natives, were scarce). These are mostly in the form of hostile stares (mostly from old people), being called a "Chink" or a "Gook" and of course, "Go back to China" utterances (she's Canadian-born and ethnic Korean). Her parents, who have thick accents, endured much worse (honestly, I don't know how my father-in-law endured some of the crap he had to deal with, working in the mines in the late 60s and 1970s, where the hostility was open and often very, very ugly).

My children (evidently, mixed ethnicity) have had to endure a few episodes of prejudice. I get way more angry about it than my wife, probably because when you are on the receiving end, you have to find a way to cope without getting explosively angry.

[MolsonExport]

Powerful stuff. Slightly peripheral to the thread perhaps, but provides an understanding of the incredible frustration that wells up after decades of prejudice and its aftermaths

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gttuve/generations_of_pain/

[ssiguy]

Conversation about race relations are essential but, unfortunately, are also pointless because they always end up as a Caucasian bashing session. Discussions about race never result in any social change and nor can they ever because they all proceed from a false assumption...............racism is a one way street.

Racism truly is "an equal opportunity employer" and is just as prevalent between minority racial/ethnic groups themselves as it with Caucasians. Of course when this issue is raised all hell breaks loose and it's somehow not racism but just dismissed as"cultural".

Vancouver has huge East Asian and East Indian population and yet I can honestly say that I have NEVER even seen a couple from those racial groups together. Why is that when there are thousands of these racial groups who have Caucasian partners? These 2 racial groups uniformally also have the amongst the most unacceptance of sexual minority groups but again because they are racial/ethnic minorities it's not considered homophobia but just dismissed as "cultural" like somehow that makes that LGBT person feel so much better.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Conversation about race relations are essential but, unfortunately, are also pointless because they always end up as a Caucasian bashing session. Discussions about race never result in any social change and nor can they ever because they all proceed from a false assumption...............racism is one street.

Racism truly is "an equal opportunity employer" and is just as prevalent between minority racial/ethnic groups themselves as it with Caucasians. Of course when this issue is raised all hell breaks loose and it's somehow not racism but just dismissed as"cultural".

Vancouver has huge East Asian and East Indian population and yet I can honestly say that I have NEVER even seen a couple from those racial groups together. Why is that when there are thousands of these racial groups who have Caucasian partners? These 2 racial groups uniformally also have the amongst the most unacceptance of sexual minority groups but again because they are racial/ethnic minorities it's not considered homophobia but just dismissed as "cultural" like somehow that makes that LGBT person feel so much better.

Like an east asian and an east indian as a couple? I’ve seen those in Richmond when I was young.

[Acajack]

Lots of sympathy or copy-cat or us-too protests going on in other countries, including Canada.

I don't wish for it to happen but if it does get ugly, I wonder if people will still apply the "you can't make an omelette without breaking any eggs" logic?

"Rioters trash downtown St. John's Newfoundland to protest police racism"

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Conversation about race relations are essential but, unfortunately, are also pointless because they always end up as a Caucasian bashing session. Discussions about race never result in any social change and nor can they ever because they all proceed from a false assumption...............racism is one street.

Racism truly is "an equal opportunity employer" and is just as prevalent between minority racial/ethnic groups themselves as it with Caucasians. Of course when this issue is raised all hell breaks loose and it's somehow not racism but just dismissed as"cultural".

Vancouver has huge East Asian and East Indian population and yet I can honestly say that I have NEVER even seen a couple from those racial groups together. Why is that when there are thousands of these racial groups who have Caucasian partners? These 2 racial groups uniformally also have the amongst the most unacceptance of sexual minority groups but again because they are racial/ethnic minorities it's not considered homophobia but just dismissed as "cultural" like somehow that makes that LGBT person feel so much better.

What the fuck does who you fuck have to do with racism?

[urbandreamer]

He's got a point: although I'm of Scots-Irish-English background, I've experienced racism in various settings. eg: work lunchroom where every ethnic group gathers at their own territorial table. I made the mistake of sitting down at x group's table and there was silence followed by "this is for our people -- no white people allowed" or in Vancouver being denied a job because I wasn't from ethnic group y. Or being kicked out of a North Toronto park because I wasn't from ethnic group z. Or the year I dated a girl from another ethnicity and her parents refused to allow me in their house. Once years ago when I was a student renting from a rooming house the landlady evicted me for some perceived slight: I was messy and therefore being racist (meanwhile I was just lazy.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

He's got a point: although I'm of Scots-Irish-English background, I've experienced racism in various settings. eg: work lunchroom where every ethnic group gathers at their own territorial table. I made the mistake of sitting down at x group's table and there was silence followed by "this is for our people -- no white people allowed" or in Vancouver being denied a job because I wasn't from ethnic group y. Or being kicked out of a North Toronto park because I wasn't from ethnic group z. Or the year I dated a girl from another ethnicity and her parents refused to allow me in their house. Once years ago when I was a student renting from a rooming house the landlady evicted me for some perceived slight: I was messy and therefore being racist (meanwhile I was just lazy.)

When I was going out with the black girlfriend I referred to in the post above, we got tons of dirty looks and could overhear whispers when we were walking around town. Always from black people BTW. Mostly men, but occasionally from women too.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Lots of sympathy or copy-cat or us-too protests going on in other countries, including Canada.

I don't wish for it to happen but if it does get ugly, I wonder if people will still apply the "you can't make an omelette without breaking any eggs" logic?

"Rioters trash downtown St. John's Newfoundland to protest police racism"

As long as they don't trash downtown Sherbrooke... :p

For once I'm glad my hometown police are such power-hungry assholes. They'd nip it in the bud... just like they did with the railway blockade (everyone immediately got arrested and the tracks were clear like an hour after it started)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Conversation about race relations are essential but, unfortunately, are also pointless because they always end up as a Caucasian bashing session. Discussions about race never result in any social change and nor can they ever because they all proceed from a false assumption...............racism is one street.

Racism truly is "an equal opportunity employer" and is just as prevalent between minority racial/ethnic groups themselves as it with Caucasians. Of course when this issue is raised all hell breaks loose and it's somehow not racism but just dismissed as"cultural".

Vancouver has huge East Asian and East Indian population and yet I can honestly say that I have NEVER even seen a couple from those racial groups together. Why is that when there are thousands of these racial groups who have Caucasian partners? These 2 racial groups uniformally also have the amongst the most unacceptance of sexual minority groups but again because they are racial/ethnic minorities it's not considered homophobia but just dismissed as "cultural" like somehow that makes that LGBT person feel so much better.

There is a lot that is wrong with this post. So many issues are conflated, and so many red herrings are brought forth.

[ReeceZ]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Conversation about race relations are essential but, unfortunately, are also pointless because they always end up as a Caucasian bashing session. Discussions about race never result in any social change and nor can they ever because they all proceed from a false assumption...............racism is one street.

Racism truly is "an equal opportunity employer" and is just as prevalent between minority racial/ethnic groups themselves as it with Caucasians. Of course when this issue is raised all hell breaks loose and it's somehow not racism but just dismissed as"cultural".

Bingo. Racism in our culture is always portrayed as an evil white problem. This thread is a classic example of that. It's always about whites being racist. Always. When do we ever hear about FN, Asians, Blacks, Arabs, etc being racist towards other races, including whites? Apparently that isn't worthy of discussion, or is only briefly mentioned and then the convo quicky reverts back to how whites are inherently evil racist people. Apparently bashing white people is all the rage these days.

Having spent a lot of time in Northern Alberta, I can tell you how racist First Nations are towards whites. Extremely racist. I've been called a white pig, white devil, white trash, white piece of shit, white faggot (and I'm not gay), and on and on. And I've done nothing but mind my own business. I've even been followed down the street by several aboriginal people in Edmonton along 118 Ave being verbally threated with physical violence, and all I was doing was going for a run.

Sadly, I already know some people will excuse that behaviour and say we (white people) deserve it. But how can you excuse racism coming from anyone? If you were on the recieveing end, I guarantee you would be singing a different tune going forward.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Lots of sympathy or copy-cat or us-too protests going on in other countries, including Canada.

The police brutality caught on film is egregious and really needs to be punished harshly. Police need to be held to a higher standard than average citizens, not a lower standard. It makes sense for people to protest it, particularly when they feel like nothing is being accomplished through official channels.

However I am not sure it is productive to build up narratives around group culpability or how that's the "tip of the iceberg" or argue that all of the behaviour is connected (e.g. the old lady glaring at you in Canada makes the police officer kill somebody in Minneapolis). Most of those claims are not falsifiable; there is no way to decide that those issues are ever fixed and they can fuel paranoia.

The representation issues are tricky too, e.g. the desire to have multiple black people in a meeting (discussed in the article). Canada's about 3.5% black. If you choose 10 people at random in Canada, the probability of picking 0 black individuals in it is 70%. That's just math.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

He's got a point: although I'm of Scots-Irish-English background, I've experienced racism in various settings. eg: work lunchroom where every ethnic group gathers at their own territorial table. I made the mistake of sitting down at x group's table and there was silence followed by "this is for our people -- no white people allowed" or in Vancouver being denied a job because I wasn't from ethnic group y. Or being kicked out of a North Toronto park because I wasn't from ethnic group z. Or the year I dated a girl from another ethnicity and her parents refused to allow me in their house. Once years ago when I was a student renting from a rooming house the landlady evicted me for some perceived slight: I was messy and therefore being racist (meanwhile I was just lazy.)

Shitty as this is (and I agree it is very shitty), this is in general not close to the institutional racism that non-whites face.

You, not getting to sit at a table, is not the same as not getting a job or being pulled over or worse.

Should we deal with all kinds of racism? Sure. But I think you can agree that the kind of racism that has substantial impact (including loss of life) should be prioritized.
Also, (not saying you did this), but I find quite often, the racism that whites experience, is used as justification for inaction against the far more serious shit that non-whites might have to face.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by someone123

The police brutality caught on film is egregious and really needs to be punished harshly. Police need to be held to a higher standard than average citizens, not a lower standard. It makes sense for people to protest it, particularly when they feel like nothing is being accomplished through official channels.

However I am not sure it is productive to build up narratives around group culpability or how that's the "tip of the iceberg" or argue that all of the behaviour is connected (e.g. the old lady glaring at you in Canada makes the police officer kill somebody in Minneapolis). Most of those claims are not falsifiable; there is no way to decide that those issues are ever fixed and they can fuel paranoia.

The representation issues are tricky too, e.g. the desire to have multiple black people in a meeting (discussed in the article). Canada's about 3.5% black. If you choose 10 people at random in Canada, the probability of picking 0 black individuals in it is 70%. That's just math.

Often ignored in these debates, is the militarization of police and the significant infiltration of police forces by white supremacists in the US. We have a lot of less of both in Canada.

The militarization bit always blows my mind as a military member. Some police forces get equipment that military members get years of training before employing. And military members are subject to far tighter rules of engagement and a much stricter Code of Service Discipline when deployed. A lot of these yahoos get the kit without the requisite training and enforced discipline to employ it. One of our successes in Canada has been the level of community policing broadly and an avoidance of the militarization seen in the US. We should be grateful about that.

The second point is important too. The FBI pointed out years ago that white supremacists were infiltrating police forces in the US. Easy to do when police forces in some small towns have just 3-4 months of training. I would hope that our higher recruiting and training standards in Canada hopefully screenout more of these.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Unconscious bias. Yes, well, we're all guilty of that, aren't we.

This is my primary issue with Trudeau. He throws around the language and pseudo science of the radical Left as though it's widely accepted / true. It's gross and infantile and, more than that, frightening as hell.

I've already had my mandatory HR training. Have you? If you haven't, you're part of the problem. You're a racist and a bigot. It's in your blood. You just don't know it yet. But Justin sure does...

[Acajack]

Rough stuff going on in Montréal.