O-Train Line 1/3 [Stage 2 | West Extension | Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[zzptichka]

Not sure what cost cutting you all talking about. We are generously spending what, 100 million to bury tracks under SJAM grassland.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Not sure what cost cutting you all talking about. We are generously spending what, 100 million to bury tracks under SJAM grassland.

Good Day.

Yep... that was part of my reply point - that the NCC and the NIMBYs in that area cost us a barrel, that could have been used elsewhere,
to avoid the Scott St. Trench syndrome, which IMHO was always a misleader issue.
And the narrowing now evident was always to be, while the previous image on GeoOttawa was a placeholder of the alignment.
I still want a significant portion of Scott St. roofed/covered. It can be done.

Moving Cleary stn to Sherbourne stn was a cost cutter,
and moving virtually all of the cut-and-cover Richmond/Byron entirely into the Linear Park was inevitable.
The bit-by-bit movement of it was a placation/placebo to the NIMBYs, until it was a fait accompli.

Meh.

[TheMatth69]

Why is it cost cutting you say ? Because we can see a clear pattern the city has always showed in previous projects. Where they plan things, then make adjustments removing more and more stuff as the project advances.

Moving the tunnel under the linear park, despite not being against it is a cost cutting measure. Making all the stations on that portion opened trench to avoid covering and installing ventilation systems is a major cost cutting measure. Making the trench even bigger is just in the line of the current pattern.
Stage 2 has already been extremely cheapened out, simplified station design with less geometry and straighter roofs, the choice of one architectural design for all station to create an economy of scale (like Stage 1), elimination of most diamond track crossings and the list goes on with what has already been done with Stage 1.
The reality is that cheapening out a project has major consequences that many will regret soon enough. Having non enclosed station especially in trenchs (7 of them on the west extension) is a disaster especially considering the weather we have here in Ottawa. I already talked about this a few message up about how trenchs amplify winter cold in the stations.
Having such enormous trenches will scar the city, especially in a linear park where people play, run, walk their dogs etc...
We already see the consequences of stage 1's cheapening. Trains that aren't meant to be run as Metro trains, extremely cold stations in the winter even in the tunnel, an incalculable amount of breakdowns and deficiencies, very blend and boring station designs, they even went to the extent of having stations with no glass cover despite having the structure already in place to have them installed (Bayview, Pimisi, Hurdman, Cyrville).

[OCCheetos]

How long are the platforms supposed to be extendable to? I forget and I was taking a closer look at the new data and found these:

The map shows Montreal, Jeanne D'Arc and "Orleans" stations both being built with 142m platforms
Place d'Orleans and Trim are both ~120m.
Lincoln Fields will also have 142m platforms.
The 120m stations have "expansion" areas indicated while the 142m ones don't.

New Orchard and Cleary will have 170m long platforms

I'm guessing maybe these will include concourse area? I'm not really sure why otherwise.

Queensview was shifted east along the alignment by about 83m.

[jchilds72]

2 x 5 module Citadis Spirits measure 118m, according to wikipedia.

[J.OT13]

When they revealed the rendering for Cleary in February 2018, it was a major bummer. I was super excited about having one underground urban station and that was taken away.

In Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, urban stations are underground. Heck, in Toronto they spend billions for underground subways with mega huge stations in empty fields (Vaughn extension). At the very least, we should have buried the stations along the urban stretch of the line (Dominion, Cleary, New Orchard, Lincoln Fields).

I hope to see the Scott Street trench covered overtime. We constantly hear City planners and suburban Councillors talk about how the city's core lacks parks. Well, that's a way to add parks for a relatively affordable cost.

As for the length of the platforms, it seems all over the place. I'm not sure where you got your numbers OCCheetos, I'm measuring 100 meters for the three east end stations you mentioned, both Byron Strip stations at 120 meters and Lincoln Fields at 100 meters. A few 90 meter stations (such as Place d'Orleans) show a 10 meter future extension.

Here's a complete list:

100 meters:

1. Orleans
2. Jeanne d'Arc
3. Montreal
4. Lincoln Fields

90 meters with 10 meter future extension:

1. Trim
2. Place d'Orleans
3. Westboro
4. Dominion
5. Iris
6. Queensview
7. Pinecrest
8. Bayshore
9. Moodie

120 meters:

1. Cleary
2. New Orchard

Stage 1 stations are all 90 meters with 10 meter future extensions, except for the three Downtown tunnel stations that are 120 meters.

Initially, when Stage 1 contract was awarded, the plan was to have 90 meters for above ground stations, expandable to 120 meters in the future. The City has now figured out that, with the Alstom Citadis, you can have your future 118 meter trains dock at 100 meter platforms with the ends sticking out. This will be an issue if one day we buy trains that are not Alstom Citadis. Maybe fully automated trains with doors closer to the ends. That might explain why they are still building out at 120 meters where future expansion could prove difficult (Byron strip).

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Why is it cost cutting you say ? Because we can see a clear pattern the city has always showed in previous projects. Where they plan things, then make adjustments removing more and more stuff as the project advances.

Moving the tunnel under the linear park, despite not being against it is a cost cutting measure. Making all the stations on that portion opened trench to avoid covering and installing ventilation systems is a major cost cutting measure. Making the trench even bigger is just in the line of the current pattern.
Stage 2 has already been extremely cheapened out, simplified station design with less geometry and straighter roofs, the choice of one architectural design for all station to create an economy of scale (like Stage 1), elimination of most diamond track crossings and the list goes on with what has already been done with Stage 1.
The reality is that cheapening out a project has major consequences that many will regret soon enough. Having non enclosed station especially in trenchs (7 of them on the west extension) is a disaster especially considering the weather we have here in Ottawa. I already talked about this a few message up about how trenchs amplify winter cold in the stations.
Having such enormous trenches will scar the city, especially in a linear park where people play, run, walk their dogs etc...
We already see the consequences of stage 1's cheapening. Trains that aren't meant to be run as Metro trains, extremely cold stations in the winter even in the tunnel, an incalculable amount of breakdowns and deficiencies, very blend and boring station designs, they even went to the extent of having stations with no glass cover despite having the structure already in place to have them installed (Bayview, Pimisi, Hurdman, Cyrville).

Yeah it was tongue in cheek. We are wasting hundreds of millions on a tunnel where it's not needed and then penny-pinch on the important stuff. Typical.

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Yeah it was tongue in cheek. We are wasting hundreds of millions on a tunnel where it's not needed and then penny-pinch on the important stuff. Typical.

And where would you put a rail line in the middle of a medium to hight density neighborhood if it's not underground.
Really a stupid comment. Mentality like this is what has put Ottawa behind for so many years.

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

As for the length of the platforms, it seems all over the place. I'm not sure where you got your numbers OCCheetos, I'm measuring 100 meters for the three east end stations you mentioned, both Byron Strip stations at 120 meters and Lincoln Fields at 100 meters. A few 90 meter stations (such as Place d'Orleans) show a 10 meter future extension.

Here's a complete list:

100 meters:

1. Orleans
2. Jeanne d'Arc
3. Montreal
4. Lincoln Fields

90 meters with 10 meter future extension:

1. Trim
2. Place d'Orleans
3. Westboro
4. Dominion
5. Iris
6. Queensview
7. Pinecrest
8. Bayshore
9. Moodie

120 meters:

1. Cleary
2. New Orchard

Stage 1 stations are all 90 meters with 10 meter future extensions, except for the three Downtown tunnel stations that are 120 meters.

Initially, when Stage 1 contract was awarded, the plan was to have 90 meters for above ground stations, expandable to 120 meters in the future. The City has now figured out that, with the Alstom Citadis, you can have your future 118 meter trains dock at 100 meter platforms with the ends sticking out. This will be an issue if one day we buy trains that are not Alstom Citadis. Maybe fully automated trains with doors closer to the ends. That might explain why they are still building out at 120 meters where future expansion could prove difficult (Byron strip).

If I"m not mistaking Citatis Spirits are 98m in two car configuration with 4 modules on each trains. Platforms are roughly between 95m and 100m because only one part of the train sticks out front or back (noticed it during my spottings). I'm not sure data on geottawa is 100% accurate looks like they rushed it a little bit.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

As for the length of the platforms, it seems all over the place. I'm not sure where you got your numbers OCCheetos, I'm measuring 100 meters for the three east end stations you mentioned, both Byron Strip stations at 120 meters and Lincoln Fields at 100 meters. A few 90 meter stations (such as Place d'Orleans) show a 10 meter future extension.

Woops, turns out the measurement tool I was using had the wrong projection set... (i.e. no projection) Those platform measurements make a lot more sense. Thanks!

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

And where would you put a rail line in the middle of a medium to hight density neighborhood if it's not underground.
Really a stupid comment. Mentality like this is what has put Ottawa behind for so many years.

I was talking about digging under SJAM parkway because somehow city views trains as an eyesore and it's worth it to throw away 100M to hide them. Read my first comment.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I was talking about digging under SJAM parkway because somehow city views trains as an eyesore and it's worth it to throw away 100M to hide them. Read my first comment.

I preferred the City's proposed solution for the SJAM, with the trains under a berm and ventilation grates shaped like the NCC bridges. I felt that it should have been enough to meet everyone's concerns by burying the line, while providing views and natural light to train riders and save millions of dollars.Not to mention a faster build.


http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/City+p...nd+rail+route+despite/8642079/story.html

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I preferred the City's proposed solution for the SJAM, with the trains under a berm and ventilation grates shaped like the NCC bridges. I felt that it should have been enough to meet everyone's concerns by burying the line, while providing views and natural light to train riders and save millions of dollars.Not to mention a faster build.

Good Day.

Thank You for bringing this back to the collective.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

And where would you put a rail line in the middle of a medium to hight density neighborhood if it's not underground.
Really a stupid comment. Mentality like this is what has put Ottawa behind for so many years.

I mean, I always thought the LRT should be elevated over the Byron Linear Park sky-train style

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I preferred the City's proposed solution for the SJAM, with the trains under a berm and ventilation grates shaped like the NCC bridges. I felt that it should have been enough to meet everyone's concerns by burying the line, while providing views and natural light to train riders and save millions of dollars.Not to mention a faster build.

I agree 100%!!!

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/City+p...nd+rail+route+despite/8642079/story.html

When you first posted this, the image appeared, now it doesn't.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree 100%!!!



When you first posted this, the image appeared, now it doesn't.

I tried to re-post it, and it disappeared again. Weird.

Sounds like a job for Imgur.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day. FYI.

City has posted the Stage 2 Confederation Line West Extension Spring 2020 Update :

https://ottawa.ca/en/planning-developmen...n-line-west-extension-spring-2020-update

EnJoy!

[TheMatth69]

Looks like they added also two new renders !
P.S: Funny how they used classic Citadis trains with O-Train colours on these renders.

[J.OT13]

Anyone remember why Dominion Station was added in 1999? I'm not asking in a "it's useless, why bother" way, but in a "it's not like the Region/City/OC to add an urban station", even if it is a glorified bus stop.

I can see Dominon gaining favour once Stage 2 opens now that it will finally be a true rapid transit station. I would love to see the City promote some of these urban stations as destinations, with Dominion near Westoboro Village and Beach, Tunney's near Wellington West, Gladstone at the heart of Little Italy, Carling near Dow's lake (please change name to Dow's Lake).

[CityTech]

I believe the NCC made the city build it as a condition of the agreement allowing OC Transpo to continue using the parkway for buses. I think this agreement also considered a Transitway stop near Ambleside as well but it never happened.