The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Unfortunate that Max is on a map with such abysmal frequencies on some sections.

Yeah the frequencies are terrible. It sucks that they put so much work into building the beautiful heated shelters and platforms everywhere, plus the MAX Yellow and MAX Purple transitways, yet the frequencies are like 15 minutes. Obviously that will improve over time, but still, it’s like why did you bother instituting a system that’s slowing things down for some of the riders? Just do it right the first time.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by foolworm

I mean in the sense of the variety of infrastructure involved. Most transit projects only involve one mode of transit along a single corridor. This Reseau Structurant (pardon my French) is not only a multimodal network, the associated auxiliary infrastructure is also more extensive than most transit projects. Some examples:

- Interchange hubs are normally improvements /redevelopments of existing facilities rather than constructed from scratch (Kitchener's Central station comes to mind);

- Pedestrian walkways and shared-use paths are often considered ancillary infrastructure intended to improve station access and corridor connectivity, but the transit boulevard appears to give almost equal space to walkways as it does to P-way;

- Mechanical links such as cable cars and funiculars are treated as elements of network infrastructure in their own right;

to name but a few. Most municipalities would conceive of such a transit network in a strategic or planning document, then proceed to obtain funding for components as separate projects that are constructed incrementally in a phased approach. This on the other hand is a zero-to-hero approach that aims to deliver the vision in one shot as a single integrated whole (as far as I can tell).

This is spot-on. Quebec City's project embodies a vision of transport which is unfortunately rather rare in Canada: transit as city-building, not just transport. We tend to focus too myopically on the infrastructure side of things - speed and capacity especially. The elements of 'place' are relegated to second-tier considerations, if considered at all. The results tend to be disjointed, with stations which feel and act like separate objects from whatever's near them.

But looking at Quebec's plans, you get the sense that the public realm and the transit infrastructure are a seamless whole. I think there's a lot to learn from here. Already, other projects in the province seem to be taking some cues from Quebec City - I'm thinking of Longueuil and to a lesser extent Gatineau, both of which seem to be going the route of integrated surface rail and public realm improvements. Hopefully, some of these lessons will translate to the surface LRT projects in the ROC.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by foolworm

How has the media not latched into this and raised hell? You'd think people would notice if the numbers went up almost a billion.

While there are moments of outrage and protests when the Green Line was first truncated and recently with the change from the full downtown tunnel, there still seems to be a lot of support for it still; there' still a feeling of any spending on rail is money well spent and a lack of understanding of how expensive the line has gotten and still how much more money will be needed to achieve the original length.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by foolworm

To be fair, Edmonton is infamously tight-fisted when it comes to capital spending (the arena being a notable recent exception). It's actually amazing how they've done a complete 180 and embarked on an LRT building spree - not only are they building both legs of the Valley Line back-to-back, they somehow managed to also wrangle cash for an extension to the old municipal airport, not to mention a mid-life refurbishment of their original line. On top of that the City is now requesting stimulus funding from the Provincial government for a second extension south, past the ring road (Anthony Henday Drive).

Yeah, the previous and current City Councils have been very pro-LRT thankfully.

The 2-station (one being a relocated NAIT station) Metro extension to Blatchford starts construction this year and Valley Line West next year I believe.

Five years from now (assuming everything stays on schedule), we will see the current LRT system more than double in length, from 24.4 km to 52.3 km.

Looking to 2030, the Capital Line South extension to 41 Avenue SW will extend this to around 60 km (as long as funding for detailed design and construction becomes available within the next few years).

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Psychedelic Sailor]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

As Canadas first transit line with platform screen doors, I've always had a soft spot for the UP Express. In our latest video we check out it's Pearson Station, one of my favorite air rail connections in North America!

https://youtu.be/E4hMmXr_8P8

Platform screen doors seem really nice, building Ottawa's LRT without them was a big mistake.

[MalcolmTucker]

Given how Ottawa's LRT has come together, platform screen doors would just be an additional point of failure that would never really work all that well.

[swimmer_spe]

https://www.blogto.com/city/2020/05/toronto-shut-down-ttc-service-financial-assistance/

"Tory said a $575 million reduction to TTC service would be required, which would result in a 50 per cent shut down of the entire transit system.

Under this scenario, service on subway Lines 1 and 2 would be cut in half, Lines 3 and 4 would be shut down entirely, all streetcar service levels would be cut in half, major bus service levels would be cut in half, and there would also be a $73.6 million reduction in wheel trans service."

This could be a scary thing, as everywhere is experiencing this.

[Dengler Avenue]

complete shutdown of lines 3 & 4

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

complete shutdown of lines 3 & 4

It won't happen, it's matter of the feds and provinces to agree to funding agreements, which should have happened months prior... shows how city taxation is idiotic in this century...

[foolworm]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Yeah the frequencies are terrible. It sucks that they put so much work into building the beautiful heated shelters and platforms everywhere, plus the MAX Yellow and MAX Purple transitways, yet the frequencies are like 15 minutes. Obviously that will improve over time, but still, it’s like why did you bother instituting a system that’s slowing things down for some of the riders? Just do it right the first time.

But this is the way it should be done: Keep the frequency low to gauge uptake first then ramp up service as required, otherwise people will just point at empty buses and lampoon the whole project as a white elephant. The hard part is getting the infrastructure built, after that it's just a matter of throwing buses onto the route.

[ssiguy]

I don't think it will happen. I would be very surprised if Ottawa doesn't come out with some form of transit bailout program. Not only will there be huge political costs to pay in the Liberal dominated urban areas if they didn't but they also know that getting the transit services backup and running again is paramount in restarting the economy.

[giallo]

I've been going down a vintage Vancouver rabbit hole on Youtube this weekend - thanks to the sidebar recommendations, and I found this video fascinating. It's of Vancouverites trying to figure out how to use the brand new skytrain system.

• Video Link

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

It won't happen, it's matter of the feds and provinces to agree to funding agreements, which should have happened months prior... shows how city taxation is idiotic in this century...

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I don't think it will happen. I would be very surprised if Ottawa doesn't come out with some form of transit bailout program. Not only will there be huge political costs to pay in the Liberal dominated urban areas if they didn't but they also know that getting the transit services backup and running again is paramount in restarting the economy.

The fact that Toronto residents pay some of the lowest tax rates is one of the bigger problems. You should not own a million dollar property if you cannot afford the high taxes that should come with it.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The fact that Toronto residents pay some of the lowest tax rates is one of the bigger problems. You should not own a million dollar property if you cannot afford the high taxes that should come with it.

That's not necessarily true though, and virtually every non-condo property in Toronto is close to a million dollars now. The mill rates are low in Toronto, but if you look at average property tax paid (excluding small condos), the City of Toronto is actually near the top in the Province. IIRC York may be a bit higher, but not by much. I'm definitely in favour of upping tax rates, but the trope that Torontonians are paying nothing isn't true at all. We are also affected disproportionately by Education Property Tax, which is the same rate across the province. So a homeowner here may be paying $2k a year while a similar home in Northern Ontario is only paying a few hundred.

Just the normal Ontario screwing over the cash cow at the expense of the rest of Southern Ontario (the North obviously gets screwed over too).

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by foolworm

But this is the way it should be done: Keep the frequency low to gauge uptake first then ramp up service as required, otherwise people will just point at empty buses and lampoon the whole project as a white elephant. The hard part is getting the infrastructure built, after that it's just a matter of throwing buses onto the route.

But if frequency is low, nobody will take it. You need high frequency to attract the demand in the first place.

Launching new service absolutely requires mostly empty buses at first. New service has to be offered as a "loss leader" in the beginning.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by niwell

That's not necessarily true though, and virtually every non-condo property in Toronto is close to a million dollars now. The mill rates are low in Toronto, but if you look at average property tax paid (excluding small condos), the City of Toronto is actually near the top in the Province. IIRC York may be a bit higher, but not by much. I'm definitely in favour of upping tax rates, but the trope that Torontonians are paying nothing isn't true at all. We are also affected disproportionately by Education Property Tax, which is the same rate across the province. So a homeowner here may be paying $2k a year while a similar home in Northern Ontario is only paying a few hundred.

Just the normal Ontario screwing over the cash cow at the expense of the rest of Southern Ontario (the North obviously gets screwed over too).

If you took Timmins Ontario's (one of the highest in the province) property tax rate and applied it to every home in the province, the property tax on most Toronto properties would be unaffordable.

So, Tory could raise the property tax inline with Timmins and it should be good, but he would never be reelected.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If you took Timmins Ontario's (one of the highest in the province) property tax rate and applied it to every home in the province, the property tax on most Toronto properties would be unaffordable.

So, Tory could raise the property tax inline with Timmins and it should be good, but he would never be reelected.

The mill rate is a function of the assessed value of the home.

So, yes, Toronto has very low mill rates as the homes are highly valued. Timmins has very high mill rates as the homes are much lower in value. Of itself, the mill rate doesn't really make sense as a comparison point. The whole tax bill (i.e. how many dollars does one pay in property taxes) is a better point of comparison.

I'd suspect the average Toronto homeowner pays more in property taxes than one in Timmins. Then again, the service levels in Toronto are higher than Timmins, so there's that too.