West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[OCCheetos]

A FLIRT's capacity is around double what you have there.

[Lightspotting]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

A FLIRT's capacity is around double what you have there.

Damn you`re right, at 500 capacity, a 80/80 split brings it to 320 people which in itself is a lot for a our double citadis spirit.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

A FLIRT's capacity is around double what you have there.

Correct... It's closer to 500 if I remember correctly.

I suspect Gatineau will go with a shorter 40-50m tram that would probably have a capacity of 200-300... but have to be higher frequency (Ottawa demand of 3500-7000, so let's say 5000/250=20 per hour or 1 tram every 3 minutes).

Given their current routing the trains from Alymer would be 1/2 empty by the time they get to Ottawa - many Gatineau residents are actually destined to downtown Hull... So this may give some incentive for Gatineau to force Rapibus passengers to transfer at a downtown hull station so that the LRT capacity can be fully utilized on its trip to downtown Ottawa. Not the best for the user, but the best for efficient use of the system.

[Aylmer]

But it could be good for users too if local bus lines take the Rapibus to Hull.

Roughly 50% of downtown-bound Gatineau riders are headed to Hull, 50% to Ottawa. If the local Gatineau sector lines used the Rapibus infrastructure to run to downtown Hull (like Ottawa's express buses did) then half of riders would go from one transfer to a direct ride. Those headed to Ottawa would still only require one transfer, occurring in downtown Hull rather than at a local Rapibus station. Any East-West trips would similarly only require one transfer instead of the two currently required (ignoring the once-per-hour 800, too infrequent to be useful).

So half of all Gatineau-sector trips shed one transfer. The other retain a single transfer, but has a traffic-free entry to Ottawa. And the STO gets efficient vehicle usage and tram tracks unencumbered by buses.
The only losers in this scenario are Hull riders (30-series buses) which go from no transfers to one transfer for half their riders. But it's arguably a draw because those buses currently take a painfully long routing across the MC bridge. Even with a transfer, trips to downtown Ottawa will be much faster.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Lightspotting

On the topic of running a LRT on POW bridge
Math is not my strong suit so bear with me.

1. A Stadler Flirt leaves from Gladstone station on line two. It`s at 80% capacity (216/270) and 80% of those people get off at Bayview to gp east on the confederation line (173 riders).

2. At the time time, a tram from Gatineau travels on the POW bridge with the same 80/80 split. Another 173 riders.

3. Again, at the same time a Citadis spirit comes from Tunneys with a 80/80 split. After dropping people off it`s at 384/600 capacity.

In this particular scenario one (double) Citadis spirit could not ''swallow'' the amount of riders. Now factor in the 1300 unit 900 Albert st Trinity complex coming up and I think the POW LRT is an absolute no go

Welcome to the forum!

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

But it could be good for users too if local bus lines take the Rapibus to Hull.

Roughly 50% of downtown-bound Gatineau riders are headed to Hull, 50% to Ottawa. If the local Gatineau sector lines used the Rapibus infrastructure to run to downtown Hull (like Ottawa's express buses did) then half of riders would go from one transfer to a direct ride. Those headed to Ottawa would still only require one transfer, occurring in downtown Hull rather than at a local Rapibus station. Any East-West trips would similarly only require one transfer instead of the two currently required (ignoring the once-per-hour 800, too infrequent to be useful).

So half of all Gatineau-sector trips shed one transfer. The other retain a single transfer, but has a traffic-free entry to Ottawa. And the STO gets efficient vehicle usage and tram tracks unencumbered by buses.
The only losers in this scenario are Hull riders (30-series buses) which go from no transfers to one transfer for half their riders. But it's arguably a draw because those buses currently take a painfully long routing across the MC bridge. Even with a transfer, trips to downtown Ottawa will be much faster.

+1, that makes a ton of sense. I will probably suggest such a setup in the public consultation... Although it's a bit too complex of a thought to be neatly summarized in an "as we heard it" report. To be honest they are doing public consultation in June and presenting the preferred Ottawa option in July. That is too close together for the public consultation to play a role in the Ottawa insertion decision. Between June and July they are probably just finalizing the presentation and renders.

Anyway, the only thing about a downtown Hull transfer between Rapibus and the Alymer tram is where to put it. It has to be far enough into Hull to have a good portion of tram passengers already disembarked. My money would be on a reorganization of the Terrace de Chaudière plaza into a bus loop and LRT transfer station.

Speaking of money. Anyone want to make bets on the ultimate recommendation. 2 parter...

Part 1: Full tram, Hybrid LRT south, or Hybrid LRT north.
Part 2: Wellington surface or Sparks tunnel.

My bet is Full tram, Wellington surface (although personally I want Sparks tunnel).

[lrt's friend]

No possibility of a Wellington subway? Wasn't that the very first subway proposal dating back to the 1915 Holt report?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by hwy418

I would not believe or trust anything the Quebec government said. Provincial dollars will flow into Quebec City and Montreal faster than you can say "oui". Gatineau will once again be forgotten. Don't get me wrong, would be great to get 60% provincial funding, but I would not get my hopes up.

Similarly in Ontario, the vast majority of provincial dollars fund mega projects in the GTHA (their share is not proportional to the population). Ottawa, always gets the shaft and ends up with scraps with it's typical 1/3-1/3-1/3 funding formula.. why? IMHO, Ottawa should get at least 2/3 Fed funding... I guess the optics of that would be too much for the government to explain outside of Ottawa.

Well West Quebec has quite a few marginal CAQ seats so might be worth protecting. Actually depending on how you measure they have more seats here than in Montreal even.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Roughly 50% of downtown-bound Gatineau riders are headed to Hull, 50% to Ottawa. If the local Gatineau sector lines used the Rapibus infrastructure to run to downtown Hull (like Ottawa's express buses did) then half of riders would go from one transfer to a direct ride. Those headed to Ottawa would still only require one transfer, occurring in downtown Hull rather than at a local Rapibus station. Any East-West trips would similarly only require one transfer instead of the two currently required (ignoring the once-per-hour 800, too infrequent to be useful).

So half of all Gatineau-sector trips shed one transfer. The other retain a single transfer, but has a traffic-free entry to Ottawa. And the STO gets efficient vehicle usage and tram tracks unencumbered by buses.
The only losers in this scenario are Hull riders (30-series buses) which go from no transfers to one transfer for half their riders. But it's arguably a draw because those buses currently take a painfully long routing across the MC bridge. Even with a transfer, trips to downtown Ottawa will be much faster.

This isn't taking into account how the buses are currently set-up though. With the 200 not making any stops at all after Montcalm until it crosses into ottawa. Sure it makes sense for routes like the 400, 95 and 93. I just don't think it makes sense to change the 200. Also i don't think they'll ever to the local into hull, because when going to gatineau in the afternoon, there'll be unused capacity on buses getting off the corridor at de la gappe, and the vast majority of people would just wait for a bus going to la cite or labrosse instead of getting of there and waiting for a full bus to continue.

[DEWLine]

I think I'm comfortable with underground integration between STO and OCTranspo LRT networks in some way. It's certainly a "nice to have". But integration of some kind will be "have to have".

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by corynv

This isn't taking into account how the buses are currently set-up though. With the 200 not making any stops at all after Montcalm until it crosses into ottawa. Sure it makes sense for routes like the 400, 95 and 93. I just don't think it makes sense to change the 200. Also i don't think they'll ever to the local into hull, because when going to gatineau in the afternoon, there'll be unused capacity on buses getting off the corridor at de la gappe, and the vast majority of people would just wait for a bus going to la cite or labrosse instead of getting of there and waiting for a full bus to continue.

It turns out the update on the STO website has more information on the way they plan to run the buses post tramway than they presented to Ottawa Council:

Main features of the system in Ottawa

A tram component is necessary for transporting riders from Gatineau's western sector to the Gatineau and Ottawa downtowns.

In Gatineau's western portion, local bus routes would get riders from the outskirts to the tram stations. Those riders would then take the tram to downtown Ottawa. Sectors such as Gatineau and Hull need a significant number of buses to get riders to downtown Ottawa. That number will rise in the coming years. This also applies to riders in the western sector in the case of hybrid scenarios along the axis served by a bus rapid transit system.

Studies were done to determine the most efficient way of getting those riders to downtown Ottawa. Several options were looked at, including:

• taking everyone there by tram, or;
• transporting all the riders that are not close to the tram by bus to downtown Ottawa.

Taking everyone there by tram

If only trams crossed to downtown Ottawa, all riders from the Gatineau and Hull sectors would have to transfer to it in downtown Gatineau. In the case of hybrid scenarios, riders along the axis served by bus would also have to make an additional transfer.

In that case, one or more stations would be needed in downtown Gatineau for all the transfers. As well, several riders would then have to transfer again to the O-Train if their destination is beyond downtown Ottawa.

Finally, additional tram cars would have to be acquired to cover the short distance between the two downtowns, which would mean significant additional costs.

This option was discarded because it would overly penalize riders, not to mention present significant challenges in terms of layout and costs.

Transporting all the riders that are not close to the tram by bus to downtown Ottawa

On the other hand, if in addition to the trams, all buses continued on to Ottawa, the Portage Bridge and downtown Ottawa would soon once again be saturated by the tremendous number of buses on the road. Thus, this option was also discarded.

The best compromise in terms of ensuring quality service and efficient operations is one where only a certain number of buses would continue on to Ottawa.

Thus, the main bus routes, such as those running along the Rapibus or the principal axes to Hull, would continue on to Ottawa.

On the Portage Bridge, buses would use the tram lanes and then, once in downtown Ottawa, loop around three circuits.

Comfortable transfer stations would be set up for the routes stopping in downtown Gatineau to enable efficient transfers to Ottawa.

[passwordisnt123]

It's such a shame that the NCC never did follow through on the idea to consolidate STO and OCTranspo. All of these problems would be solved and it would open up serious new opportunities for better/more beneficial alignments like this one:





The Ottawa river is shallower in this part. The depth is not too deep as to exceed the maximum grade of most LRTs (including Citadis Spirits), the alignment is more natural, and the infrastructure would genuinely benefit both Ottawa and Gatineau without duplicating and already existing alignment.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by DEWLine

I think I'm comfortable with underground integration between STO and OCTranspo LRT networks in some way. It's certainly a "nice to have". But integration of some kind will be "have to have".

Its interesting - depending on the option, if this actually gets built, we either get at least 1 integrated underground transfer station (a relative novelty for a City our size in North America) or we get a tram running right in front of Parliament.

The whole "tram running right in front of Parliament" thing is why some might discount the Wellington surface option because of protests or security BUT its why I think it will be the option that is chosen. I am willing to bet that the senior management team with the consultants will favour that option because they are attracted to the renders and post-construction photos of a tram running in front of Parliament Hill. Even if a little subconsciously, they are thinking of how those images will look in their personal and corporate portfolio. That's just my theory anyhow.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

It's such a shame that the NCC never did follow through on the idea to consolidate STO and OCTranspo. All of these problems would be solved and it would open up serious new opportunities for better/more beneficial alignments like this one:

The Ottawa river is shallower in this part. The depth is not too deep as to exceed the maximum grade of most LRTs (including Citadis Spirits), the alignment is more natural, and the infrastructure would genuinely benefit both Ottawa and Gatineau without duplicating and already existing alignment.

This was my preferred alignment as well. Shame it was dismissed for such flippant subjective reasons as "Impact on protected Ottawa River landscapes" (according to the presentation to Ottawa Council).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Its interesting - depending on the option, if this actually gets built, we either get at least 1 integrated underground transfer station (a relative novelty for a City our size in North America) or we get a tram running right in front of Parliament.

The whole "tram running right in front of Parliament" thing is why some might discount the Wellington surface option because of protests or security BUT its why I think it will be the option that is chosen. I am willing to bet that the senior management team with the consultants will favour that option because they are attracted to the renders and post-construction photos of a tram running in front of Parliament Hill. Even if a little subconsciously, they are thinking of how those images will look in their personal and corporate portfolio. That's just my theory anyhow.

It's hard to see either being built really. Some creative thinking will be needed. It would be weird for Quebec to pay for infrastructure in another province. New Jersey does but can't be too many other examples. The tunnel especially would be very expensive for what would be a fairly slow moving tram at it's beginning. Surface makes more sense but tit's hard to see Ottawa agreeing unless it added substantial value to Ottawa residents.

One solution everyone is happy with is of course Feds pay for all of a link. Ideally a loop but probably a simple tunnel connection. Still with the red ink we are looking at it would set a precedent.

If STO builds something all the way to Rideau Centre the reverse commute could be argued would be helpful for not only Quebec bound commuters but also some coming from points east to north edge of downtown. Especially coming off of busses. For not much more money if it could be extended to Vanier it would become useful to Ottawa and add traffic in both directions. Ottawa could pitch in nominally and agree to let them use Wellington and ideally cancel vehicle traffic on Wellington.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's hard to see either being built really. Some creative thinking will be needed. It would be weird for Quebec to pay for infrastructure in another province. New Jersey does but can't be too many other examples. The tunnel especially would be very expensive for what would be a fairly slow moving tram at it's beginning. Surface makes more sense but tit's hard to see Ottawa agreeing unless it added substantial value to Ottawa residents.

One solution everyone is happy with is of course Feds pay for all of a link. Ideally a loop but probably a simple tunnel connection. Still with the red ink we are looking at it would set a precedent.

If STO builds something all the way to Rideau Centre the reverse commute could be argued would be helpful for not only Quebec bound commuters but also some coming from points east to north edge of downtown. Especially coming off of busses. For not much more money if it could be extended to Vanier it would become useful to Ottawa and add traffic in both directions. Ottawa could pitch in nominally and agree to let them use Wellington and ideally cancel vehicle traffic on Wellington.

I don't really see the value of a loop (unless it's a crossed loop or U-shape with a converted Rapibus corridor - as I've proposed earlier).

I do like the idea of extending the Gatineau tram (if surface Wellington) toward Vanier... But that is even less likely to be an interprovincial project than what is proposed. It's possible though that a surface Wellington project will require such a shift in traffic flow that a future surface Rideau/Montreal Road BRT/tram becomes more feasible to the City of Ottawa.

[roger1818]

For those who are interested, I noticed the PDF has a much higher resolution image of the map. If you click on the maps below, you will get a high resolution copy.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

This was my preferred alignment as well. Shame it was dismissed for such flippant subjective reasons as "Impact on protected Ottawa River landscapes" (according to the presentation to Ottawa Council).

I went down a really deep rabbit hole on this one. If you look at the nautical depth charts of that area, the water between the lone pine island/twin pine island and the Ottawa shores gets deep at a rapid clip but it doesn't go as deep as the other larger side.

Assuming an LRT rolling stock able to handle a max grade similar to the Alstom Citadis Spirit, you could still get well under the bottom of the river bed starting the descent around Gatineau's Laurier and Maisonneuve and then the ascent coming well under the Confederation line to connect up with Parliament Station.

There's no reason why it would impact anything if using this alignment. It's one of those things that cost a little bit more money but gets multiples more benefit in the long wrong. All of these other alignments look ham-fisted or that somebody cheaped out and it's because they're both ham-fisted and because somebody cheaped out.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

I went down a really deep rabbit hole on this one. If you look at the nautical depth charts of that area, the water between the lone pine island/twin pine island and the Ottawa shores gets deep at a rapid clip but it doesn't go as deep as the other larger side.

Assuming an LRT rolling stock able to handle a max grade similar to the Alstom Citadis Spirit, you could still get well under the bottom of the river bed starting the descent around Gatineau's Laurier and Maisonneuve and then the ascent coming well under the Confederation line to connect up with Parliament Station.

There's no reason why it would impact anything if using this alignment. It's one of those things that cost a little bit more money but gets multiples more benefit in the long wrong. All of these other alignments look ham-fisted or that somebody cheaped out and it's because they're both ham-fisted and because somebody cheaped out.

Ahh you took a different route there ... vertically speaking. I was thinking a low-bridge over the river and then a tunnel portal basically adjacent to the sewert storage tunnel they recently constructed (in the cliff where the parking lot is). Not sure how exactly the elevation would line up with Parliament Station but I think you could make it work. An LRT only bridge would likely be much cheaper than tunneling under the river.

[Truenorth00]

Apparently none of you guys think of risks and costs with your ideas. None of these crazy ideas for a new link would be cheap.