Dead Malls of Canada

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I always sort of wondered about the logic of supermarkets as anchors, though. My local regional mall, St. Vital Centre, is probably one of the only malls left in Canada where Walmart is still part of the mall in the location it took over from Woolco. When I go grocery shopping there, I never, ever visit the rest of the mall... it might as well not exist to me.

White Oaks Mall in London still has it's former-Woolco Walmart as well. They recently expanded to a Supercentre, although I don't think it's as big as the purpose-built Supercentre up in Hyde Park, as they didn't actually increase the footprint. They basically got rid of the auto centre and turned that space into store space (I don't think I've set foot inside it since, so I don't know if they put the groceries in that area or not).

Ironically, over the last 15 years, this Walmart was always rumoured to be closing and moving to its own property in south London. I remember talking to the former mall manager of White Oaks back then, and mentioned if Walmart was leaving. He said "I hope so, I can't wait, we can't do anything with this mall with that clientele here. The sooner they go, the better, we have big plans for that space". Walmart is still there, and he isn't lol.

Over on the east side, the former Woolco at Argyle Mall rebuilt a new Walmart at the other end of the property about 5 years after Walmart took over, and the rest of the mall has been totally rebuilt into store fronts and parking lot pads instead of an interior mall. Ironically, the only original structure is the old Woolco, which was gutted and now has a Staples, Sport Check, Fit 4 Less, Marks, Dollar Store, and a No Frills in the space. I recall hearing that particular Woolco was one of, if not the largest Woolco store in Canada.

[TorontoDrew]

Since every mall across the country is dead right now, we can post some pictures inside these dead malls.

Sign of the Times by Paul Flynn, on Flickr

Nikon D90. Deserted Eaton's. by Peter LeDoux, on Flickr

[ssiguy]

The problem many malls and their current demise is that the big box store developments began at the same times as major department stores were closing across the country and these stores were nearly all major anchors in a mall. Most of you guys are too young to remember just how many large departments store chains there were in Canada. In the 60/70/80s you had big chain department stores like Simpsons, Eatons, Woolco, K-Mart, Sears, and Zellers and every mall in the country had at least one of them. When these stores closed they lost their major anchors and left a huge square area of the mall vacant.

These stores were just anchors to draw in customers but also to distribute them when they get to the malls. All malls had a major grocery chain and a major department store and they were ALWAYS located at the exact opposite ends of the mall. This was so a person going from one of the two to the other had to pass by all the smaller niche shops and services in between. With those huge department stores gone, for most shoppers there is little reason to leave the grocery store for the mall and hence all the other stores closed down due to a massive drop in foot traffic.

Again, Cherry Hill {once called Westown Plaza Mall} in London has been spared this because it was one of the very few malls in the country that didn't have a department store.

[Truenorth00]

I get the academic discussion of why it's happening. But I don't feel any sadness at seeing malls disappear. The faster, the better. The reduction of retail space will actually help retail survive. A lot of prime land gets freed up for urban housing, office space, etc. I see no downside.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I get the academic discussion of why it's happening. But I don't feel any sadness at seeing malls disappear. The faster, the better. The reduction of retail space will actually help retail survive. A lot of prime land gets freed up for urban housing, office space, etc. I see no downside.

I didn't get the sense that there was much sadness over that... it seems that the decline of malls is following as a direct result of department store anchors fading away quickly from the retail scene.

Unlike with the decline of downtown retail across Canada from the 60s to the 80s which prompted a strong public reaction and led to all kinds of attempts at public sector intervention, a closing mall will be met with the same mostly indifferent response as when Payless Shoe Stores shut down.

That said, there will still be malls around in the years ahead, just maybe not quite as many of them.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by esquire

I didn't get the sense that there was much sadness over that... it seems that the decline of malls is following as a direct result of department store anchors fading away quickly from the retail scene.

Unlike with the decline of downtown retail across Canada from the 60s to the 80s which prompted a strong public reaction and led to all kinds of attempts at public sector intervention, a closing mall will be met with the same mostly indifferent response as when Payless Shoe Stores shut down.

That said, there will still be malls around in the years ahead, just maybe not quite as many of them.

I may be an outlier here but I much rather the covered shopping place than the power centres which seemed to be designed for Florida and California instead of a place that is cold as fuck for 6 months!

Don't get me wrong, I love the open air and walkable shopping experience of well designed and appealing downtown. Its just those massive power centres have zero appeal to me.

[christopherj]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I may be an outlier here but I much rather the covered shopping place than the power centres which seemed to be designed for Florida and California instead of a place that is cold as fuck for 6 months!

Don't get me wrong, I love the open air and walkable shopping experience of well designed and appealing downtown. Its just those massive power centres have zero appeal to me.

I would just like to second this!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I may be an outlier here but I much rather the covered shopping place than the power centres which seemed to be designed for Florida and California instead of a place that is cold as fuck for 6 months!

Don't get me wrong, I love the open air and walkable shopping experience of well designed and appealing downtown. Its just those massive power centres have zero appeal to me.

I feel exactly the same.

I appreciate a mall and a "high street" in the inner city relatively equally, each one having its own strengths.

Power centres have never appealled to me, and I don't go to them unless I absolutely have to. I actually prefer the much-maligned strip mall to power centres.

Of course, power centres were only minimally designed with people in mind. They're basically a cost-cutting measure by developers to reduce the cost of maintaining, securing, lighting and climate controlling the large indoor common spaces in a mall that don't bring in any leasing revenue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I didn't get the sense that there was much sadness over that... it seems that the decline of malls is following as a direct result of department store anchors fading away quickly from the retail scene.

Unlike with the decline of downtown retail across Canada from the 60s to the 80s which prompted a strong public reaction and led to all kinds of attempts at public sector intervention, a closing mall will be met with the same mostly indifferent response as when Payless Shoe Stores shut down.

That said, there will still be malls around in the years ahead, just maybe not quite as many of them.

I agree. Any major population concentration centre will still have at least one mall of sorts in the future. Right now were are seeing the battle of which malls will be left standing.

The front-runners are reorienting themselves as experiential activity centres with restaurants and other non-shopping activities. Basically they're becoming mini indoor downtowns.

In my city there is no doubt that Les Promenades Gatineau will be that mall, as it has the location (highway and transit connections) and the heft and ownership to make it happen. It's already staked out its winning position.

Les Galeries de Hull in north-central Hull as the name suggests used to be a decent runner-up but it looks like it might be headed to dead mall status with the loss of our only Sears store and several other tenants.

They will likely follow the residential, gym, etc. trend that other malls seem to be on, if they want to survive. Our third mall, Les Galeries Aylmer, has already gone this route and has a beautiful seniors' condo building integrated into it now. It's become a sought-after place to live. Perhaps the nicest most convenient such set-up in the entire Ottawa-Gatineau region.

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Since every mall across the country is dead right now, we can post some pictures inside these dead malls.

Sign of the Times by Paul Flynn, on Flickr

Nikon D90. Deserted Eaton's. by Peter LeDoux, on Flickr

West Edmonton Mall

[esquire]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I may be an outlier here but I much rather the covered shopping place than the power centres which seemed to be designed for Florida and California instead of a place that is cold as fuck for 6 months!

Don't get me wrong, I love the open air and walkable shopping experience of well designed and appealing downtown. Its just those massive power centres have zero appeal to me.

I totally agree. I think developers saw the writing on the wall here in Winnipeg... the outlet mall that opened a few years ago was enclosed unlike the ones in warmer climates that tend to be open air.

We really don't have any big South Edmonton Common type power centres here, more the small type of complex where you have Walmart and Home Depot surrounded by a bunch of boxes. But the few that we have don't seem to be doing particularly well... they aren't closing down, but it does seem that they are always in one step forward, two steps back mode when it comes to store openings and closings. People just aren't interested in traipsing through parking lots to go from store to store, especially when it's cold outside.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I may be an outlier here but I much rather the covered shopping place than the power centres which seemed to be designed for Florida and California instead of a place that is cold as fuck for 6 months!

Don't get me wrong, I love the open air and walkable shopping experience of well designed and appealing downtown. Its just those massive power centres have zero appeal to me.

This sounds like my parents who fret about the dying mall in their suburban Toronto neighbourhood being redeveloped (they got word the mall owner was applying for such).

"Where will seniors go for walks?"

But that has to be balanced with the fact that these malls are not providing the financial returns to owners that they used to, and a lot of that land is being wasted, while we have insufficient urban housing and even office space in some cases.

Enclosed malls can survive. But it takes a completely different design than most of the 60s/70s design that are around. It requires substantially higher density to begin with. Think of 3-5 storey malls with underground parking. This frees up land for attached housing and office space and reduces the distance between stores. It requires integration of community spaces. And it may require active diversification of tenants to ensure that more categories are covered. Achieving a lot of this with existing malls is difficult. Which is why owners are increasingly deciding to simply cash in with redevelopments.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I totally agree. I think developers saw the writing on the wall here in Winnipeg... the outlet mall that opened a few years ago was enclosed unlike the ones in warmer climates that tend to be open air.

Meanwhile, Tanger thought it was a good idea for an open-air outlet mall in the outskirts of Ottawa.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree. Any major population concentration centre will still have at least one mall of sorts in the future. Right now were are seeing the battle of which malls will be left standing.

The front-runners are reorienting themselves as experiential activity centres with restaurants and other non-shopping activities. Basically they're becoming mini indoor downtowns.

Agree with this. I am actually amazed how quickly redeveloping is happening on the Ottawa side. Lincoln Fields, Carlingwood, etc. Hopefully, St-Laurent is next, coming out of the pandemic. A mall attached to a transit station shouldn't be wasted.

I find Gloucester Centre interesting. It's not much of a mall, in the traditional sense. It's essentially a big box complex with a hallway of a few stores and a food court in between. Even with the connected offices and big box stores, it struggles. The inside is kinda dead mall-ish. Maybe that will change as more development hits the surrounding area.

[kwoldtimer]

G&M reports that Canada's biggest mall owners collected only 15% of rents for the month of May. June collections are not expected to be much better. It's not clear from the article how much of the shortfall is deferred rent negotiated between landlords and tenants.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business...st-15-per-cent-of-may-rent-from-tenants/

[Djeffery]

I'm just has happy to go to a power centre or a strip mall to shop, since I'm usually going to a store, not a series of stores. And if I'm going to a series of stores, odds are they aren't all at a mall, or a power centre, so I'll be going to various places anyway. I would never choose a mall store over a power or strip plaza store though, if the same store was in those multiple locations.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I may be an outlier here but I much rather the covered shopping place than the power centres which seemed to be designed for Florida and California instead of a place that is cold as fuck for 6 months!

Don't get me wrong, I love the open air and walkable shopping experience of well designed and appealing downtown. Its just those massive power centres have zero appeal to me.

In a place like Timmins I have to agree with that. Our main mall, Timmins Square, is struggling like many others and has no large stores. Anchors now are No Frills, Winners and Sport Chek I guess. But some stores that were part of a failed power centre development have actually moved back into the mall because people weren't willing to drive specifically to them. Many people think that the mall is dying a slower death rather than a quick one. The only store that I find useful to visit is for Eastlink but I only go maybe once a year.

We have some box stores (Staples, Best Buy, Home Depot, Walmart, Canadian Tire) but those stores are just on their own. There are small buildings that once had stores in the parking lots. Now they have offices and mining supply companies. So the power centre concept failed in Timmins.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Meanwhile, Tanger thought it was a good idea for an open-air outlet mall in the outskirts of Ottawa.

Yeah and it’s a terrible experience in winter. I suspect that place isn’t nearly as busy in winter so this design choice probably causes a loss of revenue. Kanata Centrum close by is a struggling “lifestyle” power centre that would have been better off with a more traditional design. Tons of vacancies in the pedestrian section.

[MolsonExport]

Smart Centres are the worst, due to Oceans of parking and the utter banality of the exact same architecture and exact same mixture of stores, at each Smart Centre Power Centre. You could be in Mississauga or Milton, London or Leamington, Ancaster or Abbotsford, Chilliwack or Cornwall, and Lethbridge or Lloydminster.

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Smart Centres are the worst, due to Oceans of parking and the utter banality of the exact same architecture and exact same mixture of stores, at each Smart Centre Power Centre. You could be in Mississauga or Milton, London or Leamington, Ancaster or Abbotsford, Chilliwack or Cornwall, and Lethbridge or Lloydminster.

The architecture is also so unbelievably corny at those places, urban cancer. How is this for fugly, the ShartCentre on Leaside!




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