Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW) 1.0

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

I also can never understand why in Ottawa we want to seek “solutions” to reduce our access to our already meagre international air service...that was on the verge of actually improving. Now just getting FRA back next year will be an accomplishment.

There are way too many people in this city who:

1) Hate it
2) Wish they were elsewhere
3) Both #1 and #2
4) Came here for the federal pay cheque but really #1 or #2 or #3
5) Came here due to family (or other) ties but really #1 or #2 or #3
6) Live in and identify with a neighbouring jurisdiction (neither from Ottawa nor "Ottawa"), many of whom also #1 or #2 or #3

This is a sizeable enough proportion of the total population that it significantly diminishes civic pride and has the effect of significantly stunting our progress. It's been like this since I was born and affects much, much more than just "trains and planes".

Simply put, there aren't enough people who are either from here or "from here" and love it. There is hope, but like everything in this city/region, it happens slooooooowly.

It's also a whole other debate worthy of its own thread.

[YOWhopeful]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

There are way too many people in this city who:

1) Hate it
2) Wish they were elsewhere
3) Both #1 and #2
3) Came here for the federal pay cheque but really #1 or #2 or #3
4) Came here due to family (or other) ties but really #1 or #2 or #3
5) Live in and identify with a neighbouring jurisdiction (neither from Ottawa nor "Ottawa"), many of whom also #1 or #2 or #3

This is a sizeable enough proportion of the total population that it significantly diminishes civic pride and has the effect of significantly stunting our progress. It's been like this since I was born and affects much, much more than just "trains and planes".

Simply put, there aren't enough people who are either from here or "from here" and love it. There is hope, but like everything in this city/region, it happens slooooooowly.

It's also a whole other debate worthy of its own thread.

So well said!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

There are way too many people in this city who:

1) Hate it
2) Wish they were elsewhere
3) Both #1 and #2
4) Came here for the federal pay cheque but really #1 or #2 or #3
5) Came here due to family (or other) ties but really #1 or #2 or #3
6) Live in and identify with a neighbouring jurisdiction (neither from Ottawa nor "Ottawa"), many of whom also #1 or #2 or #3

This is a sizeable enough proportion of the total population that it significantly diminishes civic pride and has the effect of significantly stunting our progress. It's been like this since I was born and affects much, much more than just "trains and planes".

Simply put, there aren't enough people who are either from here or "from here" and love it. There is hope, but like everything in this city/region, it happens slooooooowly.

It's also a whole other debate worthy of its own thread.

So you are saying that those who love Ottawa shouldn't ever want to travel anywhere else and those who moved here should never want to visit family in other cities?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

How? You're not explaining how it's easier.

Let me guess. You don't use transit much, and have never accessed the airport by transit. Unless you live near the airport, Tremblay station is station is substantially more accessible for a lot of Ottawa. Most importantly the downtown core. Transit aside, it's also more accessible by car too. And since HFR would be a through service, Fallowfield would function similarly in the west end.

I actually agree that YOW is a fantastic airport. But as long as there are more options at YUL and more competitive pricing, easier access of that airport will have an impact on where people choose to fly from.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Regarding HFR, it’s still at least 8-10 years away, if ever. It’ll be interesting to see post-Covid if the government will want to spend billions on new infrastructure projects as stimulus or move toward deficit reduction. If it’s the latter, HFR will be even longer off.

There's already been comments that they are pursuing this more actively. And the $70 million currently being spent on "pre-procurement activities" wasn't meant merely as distraction. I would be very surprised if it's not part of any recovery plan. See comments here:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics...ady-projects-for-post-shutdown-stimulus/

Moreover, this is the long term direction. Look at France. They made the bailout of Air France conditional on a commitment to substantially reduce domestic short-haul flying and increase integration with rail:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52527517

I also expect carbon footprint accounting for corporate travel to eventually become a policy for public servants. This is picking up elsewhere. And this would itself impact traffic to Toronto and Montreal a bit.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

I also can never understand why in Ottawa we want to seek “solutions” to reduce our access to our already meagre international air service...that was on the verge of actually improving. Now just getting FRA back next year will be an accomplishment.

I can never understand how people can claim to be serious about climate change and completely ignore the impact of short haul flying. Nobody is saying flying should be curtailed substantially at YOW, but there is an argument for feeder traffic to move by rail. Especially feeder traffic to YUL.

I'm also happy to see YUL bolstered over YYZ, with Ottawa's feed enabling some destinations that might normally only be feasible out of Toronto.

For YOW itself, the advent of narrowbody long-haul should enable YOW to replace that traffic with more long-haul destinations. For example, YOW should be able to support a daily 321LR to CDG, AMS and MUC. Maybe YOW's managers will be more motivated to chase down that business when they lose some short-haul traffic.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

So you are saying that those who love Ottawa shouldn't ever want to travel anywhere else and those who moved here should never want to visit family in other cities?

I think he's saying that your love of Ottawa is defined by how much you support flying out of YOW...

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by roger1818

So you are saying that those who love Ottawa shouldn't ever want to travel anywhere else and those who moved here should never want to visit family in other cities?

That's not what I'm saying at all.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think he's saying that your love of Ottawa is defined by how much you support flying out of YOW the advancement of all things Ottawa...

That's a bit more accurate without writing a thesis.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

That's more accurate without writing a thesis.

Funny how rail service improvements don't fit your definition of "advancement" but flying out of YOW does....

Personally I see no big loss in less pax out of YOW to YYZ and YUL.

[YOWflier]

Why is that funny? I actually like rail but have a preference for all things aviation dating back to my childhood and prefer to advance that in my hometown. I'd like to see all stops pulled out to recover seal as air pax bleed as possible so that our air services are bolstered. I've never hidden that and have been robotically consistent on that.

I recall earlier in earlier in this thread you cheering for YOW to be relegated to an LCC airport of sorts. I aspire for greater than that.

[YOWflier]

Why is that funny? I actually like rail but have a preference for all things aviation and prefer to advance that in my hometown. I'd like to see all stops pulled out to recover the pax bleeding so that our air services are bolstered. I've never hidden that and have been robotically consistent on that.

I recall earlier in earlier in this thread you cheering for YOW to be relegated to an LCC airport of sorts. I aspire for greater than that.

Your latest messages, however, are ones I can mostly get on board with.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I recall earlier in earlier in this thread you cheering for YOW to be relegated to an LCC airport of sorts. I aspire for greater than that.

I guess you have to be weirdly emotionally invested in an airport to see types of traffic as offensive. Because I don't see it. I want to see the number of destinations out of YOW growing. Not just more and larger flights to YUL and YYZ.

Why is an LCC airport bad? I think it's a fantastic strategy to GROW traffic at YOW. Especially since Ottawa will never have the population base to justify the types of links that larger cities have. I think getting LCC business from Eastern Ontario and Quebec is a fantastic gameplan. And it doesn't rule out cultivating more international connections.

Moreover, I always think it's prudent to be prepared. I don't want YOW management running around like headless chickens when they start losing more vacation travelers to YUL, see downgauges to YYZ and frequency cuts to YTZ, as HFR comes into service.

Lastly, it still says a lot the you can't see what would be a multi billion dollar investment better connecting Ottawa as an "advancement" because it threatens your aviation fanboy dreams. So much for labeling others Ottawa haters.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I want to see the number of destinations out of YOW growing. Not just more and larger flights to YUL and YYZ.

On this we agree. Most of the rest is thinly veiled insults and passive aggression that defines you and I don't care to engage.

So much for labeling others Ottawa haters.

I was responding to Dominion's post and didn't mention anyone specifically. I had a lot of people in mind when I wrote that, but nobody on here. The predictable happened anyway, and that's on you, not me.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

On this we agree. Most of the rest is thinly veiled insults and passive aggression that defines you and I don't care to engage.

This is hilarious coming from someone who suggested that people hate Ottawa if they don't want to see more flights out of YOW or see other forms of traffic apparently. Or apparently any criticism. Want to explain what your numbered list had to do with the thread topic in any sincerity? This is par for the course with you though.

What next? Must have an Ottawa birth certificate to be able to criticize anything in the city?

[Truenorth00]

Let's just quote this again to remind people that if you have a different vision for Ottawa, ac888yow thinks you're a non-native and disloyal — who hates this town.

Originally Posted by ac888yow

There are way too many people in this city who:

1) Hate it
2) Wish they were elsewhere
3) Both #1 and #2
4) Came here for the federal pay cheque but really #1 or #2 or #3
5) Came here due to family (or other) ties but really #1 or #2 or #3
6) Live in and identify with a neighbouring jurisdiction (neither from Ottawa nor "Ottawa"), many of whom also #1 or #2 or #3

This is a sizeable enough proportion of the total population that it significantly diminishes civic pride and has the effect of significantly stunting our progress. It's been like this since I was born and affects much, much more than just "trains and planes".

Simply put, there aren't enough people who are either from here or "from here" and love it. There is hope, but like everything in this city/region, it happens slooooooowly.

It's also a whole other debate worthy of its own thread.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I don't know if AF/KLM owns those coaches or hires them. Regardless hiring a coach is astonishingly affordable (we did it as regular Joes for a family event). The point is that AF/KLM probably runs these for peanuts and charges nothing to its passengers for it. I don't know that Via can/will be able to give away seats like this so easily.

I believe Autocars Skyport operates the buses. I've seen them out on Chemin Pink in Gatineau, I assume where they layover.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

...

Thanks for quoting. I stand by it fully, and was complimented both publicly and privately for it. It was in response to Dominion's post and I even concluded by saying there should be a dedicated thread to debate it so we wouldn't get too far off track here. Then, the predictable happened.

Why it seems to have resonated so strongly with you is a question only you can answer.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Catenary

I believe Autocars Skyport operates the buses. I've seen them out on Chemin Pink in Gatineau, I assume where they layover.

Thanks. Out of curiosity I'm going to ask around to see if anyone knows what these are costing AF/KLM to run. If I find anything I'll post here.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Thanks for quoting. I stand by it fully, and was complimented both publicly and privately for it.

Ah yes the circle jerk of people who actually complain about other Ottawa residents....

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Why it seems to have resonated so strongly with you is a question only you can answer.

I don't like bullying —. Simple as that. Telling someone that they don't belong because they see the city differently from you fits in that category.

[YOWflier]

You've not been the subject of any insults or aggression in this discussion but have doled out plenty. Disengage.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It is true that ”VIA would have to entice AF/KLM to do this“ through a combination of lower cost to the airline and a better passenger experience. It is low hanging fruit because AF/KLM:

• Already see the value in providing service to Ottawa,
• Aren't stuck on the idea that they need to use YOW, and
• Understand (as European carriers) that rail/air codeshares can be very successful (it’s common practice in Europe).

It isn’t a solution looking for a problem, but a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Aviation fanboys act like integration is such a big deal. As if no railco and airline have ever done it before. It isn't. Especially for an airline used to substantial air-rail integration at their home hub. It's also very easy for VIA to simply keep a coach on reserve/contract to meet commitments in the event of train/flight/schedule ssues.

Whether they really want to do it in this case is debatable because there are some advantages of the bus. Namely curbside service at YUL. On the other hand, there's cost and operational flexibility advantages to integrating with VIA. AFKL has nearly half a dozen flights out of YUL at summer peak. Integration means Ottawa passengers have more choice across their schedule. We aren't going to be limited by one bus departure per day. And their ground staff doesn't have to manage a bus service, all now contracted to VIA.

The bigger issue isn't really AFKL. That's a busload of passengers. The real issue is how easy and cheap accessing YUL from Tremblay and Fallowfield becomes. Particularly for non-business travelers. 2 hr drive replaced with 1 hr train ride. Probably cheaper parking at the Fallowfield or Tremblay than Dorval. Or even a cheap Uber or transit instead and the car stays home. The time and cost penalty of taking a flight out of YUL goes down and increases cross-shopping particularly for leisure travelers. Heck, VIA may be able to pull off a round-trip fare for Dorval pax at little more than YOW's airport improvement free. In this scenario if YOW can't ensure adequate yields for the carriers, the LCCs will cut service to YOW.

There is a case for more direct flights to YOW with smaller aircraft for business oriented traffic. Much more difficult to retain traffic that is more cost and less time sensitive.