Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Thanks for the rundown on the three metropolises of New Brunswick. Saint John's commercial section is definitely the best-looking of the three, right?

Which one has the hottest summer and which one has the least cold winter? Because these two variables encompass two of the cities, don't they?

Pretty safe bet that Freddy is the most continental (hottest summer + coldest winter).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Thanks for the rundown on the three metropolises of New Brunswick. Saint John's commercial section is definitely the best-looking of the three, right?

Which one has the hottest summer and which one has the least cold winter? Because these two variables encompass two of the cities, don't they?

New Brunswick is a lot like Ontario. In fact Moncton is almost the same as Kingston and Fredericton is almost the same as Peterborough climate-wise. Saint John has a bit more marine influence.

(NB along with the rest of the Maritimes has an undeserved reputation for bad weather within Canada.)

Originally Posted by lio45

Pretty safe bet that Freddy is the most continental (hottest summer + coldest winter).

Fredericton has full-on winters with consistent snow cover and below 0 temperatures for long periods while Saint John is right at the boundary of that, with a little bit more rain than snow in the winter months and fog.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Thanks for the rundown on the three metropolises of New Brunswick. Saint John's commercial section is definitely the best-looking of the three, right?

Which one has the hottest summer and which one has the least cold winter? Because these two variables encompass two of the cities, don't they?

I suspect you'd like Saint John the best, although each has its charms. A few random streetscapes from each city centre (some are likely outdated - certainly the last Moncton pic is, but I mostly wanted to give a sense of the overall scale, style, and placement of buildings in each):

Saint John:


Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada by Lucia, on Flickr


Historic Uptown Saint John by Laurence Lui, on Flickr


Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada by Lucia, on Flickr


Fredericton:


Downtown Fredericton by I'm Me, Who are You?, on Flickr


Downtown Fredericton-49 by Cindi Hachey, on Flickr


Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada by Lucia, on Flickr


Moncton:


Downtown Moncton by Marc Leblanc, on Flickr


Untitled photo [3460B90B-891C-4323-BB41-C495EEED380F] by Serge Martin, on Flickr


Downtown Moncton, City Hall by palestrina55, on Flickr


Uptown Saint John seems the largest of the three by a fairly wide margin. Moncton and Fredericton's downtowns are probably around the same overall area although Moncton's is much more linear.

[Chadillaccc]

Saint John is so freakin gorgeous.

[Hali87]

It really is. It has some interesting natural features as well - it's the primary city on the Bay of Fundy which has the highest tidal variance in the world, and there's a section of the Saint John river known as Reversing Falls that changes directions with the tides. Moncton isn't located on the Bay itself although the tides do affect the Petitcodiac River which runs through Moncton - people surf down the river sometimes. The rocky landscape surrounding Saint John is also very striking. Downtown Fredericton lies at the bottom of a steep, lush river valley (also on the Saint John River) and Downtown Moncton is on a sort of mud flat along the Petitcodiac.

UNB campus (on the hill adjacent to downtown Fredericton) has the look of a classic New Enlgand college, Uptown Saint John is surrounded by heavy industry, and Downtown Moncton sort of spills onto the highway and into residential neighbourhoods.

I find Saint John the most interesting but it's also the most off the beaten path, the hardest to get to from Halifax/Cape Breton/PEI, not really bilingual, and I find that most people from there tend to have a kind of rust-belty image of the city. In many ways it reminds me of Cape Breton except that people from Cape Breton talk about Cape Breton. The fact that [gestures at pictures] but nobody ever really hears about this place kind of sums it up.

There's a lot of affordable property in the area and under the right circumstances I could see it turning into a larger version of Nelson or something, with a lot of artists and DIY-types and young entrepreneurs. But I've never really seen it marketed as a place to live, unless you just happen to have a job there.

[esquire]

It's interesting to see how different Saint John, Fredericton and Moncton are from each other. Saint John in particular has an old-world elegance that is probably a pretty solid asset. I would really like to explore that city.

The only NB city I've visited is Moncton, which I've been to a couple of times although not in the last decade. (Still hoping I can visit this summer as planned, though.) To be honest it didn't impress me a whole lot in terms of built form, it felt like a bigger Brandon, MB. Lots of empty space, surface parking and nondescript 60s and 70s buildings. It isn't what I expected of a city in Atlantic Canada with a long history. But that said, judging by the pictures we've seen of Moncton lately it looks like it's filling out a bit. And the natural side of Moncton was always beautiful.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's interesting to see how different Saint John, Fredericton and Moncton are from each other. Saint John in particular has an old-world elegance that is probably a pretty solid asset. I would really like to explore that city.

The only NB city I've visited is Moncton, which I've been to a couple of times although not in the last decade. (Still hoping I can visit this summer as planned, though.) To be honest it didn't impress me a whole lot in terms of built form, it felt like a bigger Brandon, MB. Lots of empty space, surface parking and nondescript 60s and 70s buildings. It isn't what I expected of a city in Atlantic Canada with a long history. But that said, judging by the pictures we've seen of Moncton lately it looks like it's filling out a bit. And the natural side of Moncton was always beautiful.

The three NB cities are quite dissimilar from each other in built form, and it is quite interesting how they complement each other in terms of their economic strengths.

- Fredericton - government, universities, military
- Saint John - seaport, heavy industry
- Moncton - logistics, commercial centre, white collar business centre

In terms of Moncton's built form, although first settled in 1733, it remained a farming community until the late 1840s when shipbuilding became established, but didn't really take off until the 1880s with the growth of the railways. As such, Moncton is a "Johnny-come-lately" as far as Maritime cities are concerned, and as such, the city is the least Maritime in terms of built character. As I've said before on the forum, it reminds me of a Prairie city teleported to the east coast.

And, yes, the downtown of Moncton is filling out, especially around the Avenir Centre, and around city hall. If you haven't been here in a decade, you will definitely notice a difference.

[Acajack]

As someone "from" New Brunswick, having lived there and going there regularly all my life, I remember as a kid going to Saint John a few times (mostly but not always to take the ferry to Digby, Nova Scotia) and thinking when I was a young teen: hey, this place's buildings, downtown, central market are kinda cool.

We never went again as a family after that, and I haven't thought about it much since then.

[Coldrsx]

I really need to get to Saint John and much more of the Maritimes.

[goodgrowth]

Haven't been to Saint John in a long time but looking on Google Maps some areas are nice(downtown) but some surrounding neighborhoods seem kinda dilapidated.

Seems like a city prime for some degree of gentrification.

[Coldrsx]

Shot this AM.


https://twitter.com/kmoorephotos/status/1252957466410639362

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As someone "from" New Brunswick, having lived there and going there regularly all my life, I remember as a kid going to Saint John a few times (mostly but not always to take the ferry to Digby, Nova Scotia) and thinking when I was a young teen: hey, this place's buildings, downtown, central market are kinda cool.

People on SSP like the office towers, narrower streets, and old masonry buildings but people I've known from NB often had a pretty negative view of Saint John, in particular complaining about industry/pollution there like mills and a general lack of economic success. But I think their impressions are probably quite old at this point.

I've said before how it's interesting that Saint John seems to have a higher profile with older people (who would go there from NS via the Digby ferry), while Moncton is the better-known "second city" in the Maritimes for younger people. Back in the 70's and 80's, Saint John was more prominent than it is now. SJ has a heavy industry image now but in its heyday it had a more diverse economy based around manufacturing. It devolved somewhat into a mill town with a couple of large employers, and struggled to make the leap to a more white collar economy.

One aspect of SJ I like is how the footprint of the city fits its geography. It was large enough to spill out of the uptown peninsula early on and those inner geographical features exist on a human pedestrian scale. Geographical constraints tend to make cities more interesting.

[lio45]

I looked at Saint John real estate for fun a couple years ago and the prices were incredibly low by Quebec standards. I recall seeing a sixplex for some $20,000. Not even that far from the core... (The neighborhood was gritty, though.)

From a Vancouver point of view, you'd assume that the person who entered the listing simply failed to press the "0" key the correct number of times - missing at least one keystroke and actually probably two.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

People on SSP like the office towers, narrower streets, and old masonry buildings but people I've known from NB often had a pretty negative view of Saint John, in particular complaining about industry/pollution there like mills and a general lack of economic success.

Yeah, my relatives in NB don't have much time for Saint John. If they even think about it at all.

But they're Acadians so that likely plays into it.

[isaidso]

Does anyone have a good photo of that big Saint John hospital on a hill they imploded? I remember seeing it from the VIA Rail train to Montreal. Then one year it wasn't there any more.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, my relatives in NB don't have much time for Saint John. If they even think about it at all.

But they're Acadians so that likely plays into it.

I think New Brunswick bilingualism had an impact on Saint John too and that is not often mentioned. New Brunswick has about 800,000 and is in the ballpark of 30% Francophone. Moncton is more of a hub for both Anglophones and Francophones while Saint John has much less in the way of Francophone-specific amenities.

Then on top of this NB has a separate capital city, so SJ was left not only with a small hinterland but a limited base of white collar jobs.

I've posted about this before but during the age when water transportation was more important, Saint John was seen as the capital city of the Fundy area, which includes both NS and NB sides. When the railways were built Saint John not only lost out to Moncton but also resoundingly lost out on being a hub for the more fertile southern half of the Fundy Basin. You might have shipped goods from Digby to Saint John and vice versa in 1850 but in 1890 everything went to and from Halifax since the trip went from 2 days by oxcart to 2 hours by train.

The Clockmaker (Sam Slick) was a serial published around 1836 that discussed which cities would or wouldn't grow in the Maritimes:

Well, tother side
on the Bay of Fundy is a superfine country, there aint
the beat of it to be found any where. Now, would'nt the
folks living away up to the Bay, be pretty fools to go
to Halifax, when they can go to St. John with half the
trouble. St. John is the natural capital of the Bay of
Fundy, it will be the largest city in America next to
New York. It has an immense back country as big as Great
Britain, a first chop river, and amazin sharp folks, most
as cute as the Yankees--it's a splendid location for
business. Well, they draw all the produce of the Bay
shores, and where the produce goes the supplies return--
it will take the whole trade of the Province; I guess
your rich folks will find they've burnt their fingers,
they've put their foot in it, that's a fact. Houses with
out tenants--wharves without shipping, a town without
people--what a grand investment!! If you have any loose
dollars, let 'em out on mortgage in Halifax, that's the
security--keep clear of the country for your life--the
people may run, but the town can't. No, take away the
troops, and you're done--you'll sing the dead march folks
did at Louisburg and Shelburne. Why you hant got a single
thing worth havin, but a good harbor, and as for that
the coast is full on 'em. You hav'nt a pine log, a spruce
board or a refuse shingle; you neither raise wheat, oats,
or hay, nor never can; you have no staples on airth,
unless it be them iron ones for the padlocks, in
Bridewell--you've sowed pride and reaped poverty, take
care of your crop, for it's worth harvestin--you have no
River and no Country, what in the name of fortin have
you to trade on? But, said he, (and he shewed the whites
of his eyes like a wall eyed horse) but, said he, Mr.
Slick, how is it then, Halifax ever grew at all, has'nt
it got what it always had; it's no worse than it was. I
guess, said I, that pole aint strong enough to bear you,
neither; if you trust to that you'll be into the brook,
as sure as you are born; you once had the trade of the
whole Province, but St. John has run off with that
now--you've lost all but your trade in blue berries and
rabbits with the n-----s at Hammond Plains. You've lost
your customers, your rivals have a better stand for
business--they've got the corner store--four great streets
meet there, and its near the market slip.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/5817/pg5817.txt

(By Bridewell he means the workhouse for criminals. Louisbourg and Shelburne were ghost towns in this period that were some of the biggest settlements in North America during their boom periods in the 1700's.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think New Brunswick bilingualism had an impact on Saint John too and that is not often mentioned. New Brunswick has about 800,000 and is in the ballpark of 30% Francophone. Moncton is more of a hub for both Anglophones and Francophones while Saint John has much less in the way of Francophone-specific amenities.
x.

That's quite true. Saint John is only barely a "third" city for francophones. I think you may even hear more about Bathurst and Edmundston.

Moncton is the king but Fredericton is still on the radar quite a bit due to being the provincial capital. If you're involved in education, health care or municipal affairs, Fredericton is on your mind whether you're in St. Andrews or St-André-de-Restigouche*.

EDIT: Saint-André-de-Restigouche is actually in Quebec... but there are several towns in NB called Saint(e)-X-de-Restigouche...

[Rico Rommheim]

I`ve looked at Saint John quite a bit via Google Earth 3D and streeview.What potential this little city has. Such a shame that it`s been left behind, not only by Canada, but by it`s own province.

It`s crying out for redevelopment, but with it`s 3rd tier status in canada`s 3rd tier province I Don't see how this could ever happen. Any ideas?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As someone "from" New Brunswick, having lived there and going there regularly all my life, I remember as a kid going to Saint John a few times (mostly but not always to take the ferry to Digby, Nova Scotia) and thinking when I was a young teen: hey, this place's buildings, downtown, central market are kinda cool.

We never went again as a family after that, and I haven't thought about it much since then.

Until now it never occurred to me that people take the ferry to Digby. Although I assume there are at least some people doing the opposite.

[HomeInMyShoes]

What I like about that view of Edmonton is I can't see Peregrine. What I don't like about that view of Edmonton is I can see Quest.