Long term repercussions from Covid-19 what will they be?

[lio45]

Seems to me that Chinese (and Korean/Japanese) immigrants actually integrate pretty damn well into Anglosphere cultures, all things considered.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The world created the "monster" that is China? Wut?

By allowing them to become our factory, I suppose he means. (And he wouldn't be incorrect; we the First World did greatly boost China's power by outsourcing so much of our production to it.)

[esquire]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Perhaps it’s different in other provinces, but I’ve never heard of an Ontario student not getting into an Ontario university because international students were given priority.

I was wondering about that claim myself. Despite the growth in international students, Canadian universities still have a reputation for being very accessible, at least for undergraduate programs. If there are widespread instances of qualified Canadian students not getting accepted into bachelor's degree programs because they're swamped with international students, it certainly isn't something that has been raised as an issue on a larger scale.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Sure maybe the guy born and raised in Abuja might not be down with pride parades, but there's a good chance his granddaughter who will be born in Canada about 20 years hence would be perfectly comfortable participating in one. The reach of the old world fades away over time.
.

That's the optimist's view anyway. So far that's usually the way things have gone, though every era is different.

I think we can say that past waves of government-sponsored immigration have mostly brought in people who were "different" from the people already here, but not that much (discounting European colonization of course).

A fairly large segment of our current immigration waves is somewhat more distant from us in terms of values and attitudes, and I think our high degree confidence in our ability to "bring them around" (or at least their kids and grandkids) is highly predicated on our successes of the past with other disparate groups.

Whether or not that is a good harbinger remains to be seen.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Governments around the world are going to alter their policies to restrict immigration from China? I don't know of any Western countries that would target specific source countries for restrictions like that.

I don't see that either. And if they did, I doubt China would be a major focus of restrictions.

[Acajack]

Regarding bitterness towards immigrants and immigration related to the high cost of housing (and people being priced out of their own city), I don't see that as a "thing" anywhere in Canada except in certain circles in the Vancouver area.

Even in the GTA where housing prices are sky-high, that's not really an issue you hear about.

So it's hardly something that is going to drive changes to immigration policy at the federal level.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's the optimist's view anyway. So far that's usually the way things have gone, though every era is different.

I think we can say that past waves of government-sponsored immigration have mostly brought in people who were "different" from the people already here, but not that much (discounting European colonization of course).

A fairly large segment of our current immigration waves is somewhat more distant from us in terms of values and attitudes, and I think our high degree confidence in our ability to "bring them around" (or at least their kids and grandkids) is highly predicated on our successes of the past with other disparate groups.

Whether or not that is a good harbinger remains to be seen.

Bear in mind I don't think it's reasonable to expect that everyone will "come around" on these issues. There are plenty of fifth generation (or whatever) Canadians who are very social conservative. If the grandchildren of a Saudi immigrant are still not at the vanguard of NDP-style woke culture despite a lifetime of exposure to Canadian values then I wouldn't chalk that up to policy failure... not everyone has to be on the same page.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Bear in mind I don't think it's reasonable to expect that everyone will "come around" on these issues. There are plenty of fifth generation (or whatever) Canadians who are very social conservative. If the grandchildren of a Saudi immigrant are still not at the vanguard of NDP-style woke culture despite a lifetime of exposure to Canadian values then I wouldn't chalk that up to policy failure... not everyone has to be on the same page.

I don't necessarily disagree. But this does mean that if current trends continue, there is more than an off chance we're lining up a more socially conservative Canada for the future.

[kool maudit]

I doubt it would get more socially conservative. It would probably become more class-stratified, with social conservatism as an underclass marker and vice-versa. The cultural, academic, media, and political class may become even more socially liberal to 1) signal class fealty, 2) balance the austerity measures common to stratified societies and 3) create the illusion of a 'national consensus' to minimize the felt presence of large communities with traditional beliefs.

Social conservatism is always prole-ish because its clannish nature comes from circumstances where that is all you can rely on. Aristos and high-bourgeois could always afford individualism and eccentricity, and their culture was always relatively more tolerant of it. Strivers signal with 🞵🞵🞵.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I doubt it would get more socially conservative. It would probably become more class-stratified, with social conservatism as an underclass marker and vice-versa. The cultural, academic, media, and political class may become even more socially liberal to 1) signal class fealty, 2) balance the austerity measures common to stratified societies and 3) create the illusion of a 'national consensus' to minimize the felt presence of large communities with traditional beliefs.

When I think of the underclass, social conservatism is not really one of the distinguishing characteristics that comes to mind...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by lio45

Seems to me that Chinese (and Korean/Japanese) immigrants actually integrate pretty damn well into Anglosphere cultures, all things considered.

They're what Americans refer to as "model minorities". They work hard, are educated, they integrate well, and they don't have religious affiliations requiring widespread accommodations and sociopolitical upheaval.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I doubt it would get more socially conservative. It would probably become more class-stratified, with social conservatism as an underclass marker and vice-versa. The cultural, academic, media, and political class may become even more socially liberal to 1) signal class fealty, 2) balance the austerity measures common to stratified societies and 3) create the illusion of a 'national consensus' to minimize the felt presence of large communities with traditional beliefs./QUOTE].

I was thinking about this more after I posted. I think stratification might be a more likely outcome, though class as the main marker doesn't seem to be a certainty to me. Perhaps the markers will be more demographic or even geographic? I can already see major cities (or at least decent swathes of them) being more socially conservative than rural areas. That's arguably already a bit the case in some places.

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Social conservatism is always prole-ish because its clannish nature comes from circumstances where that is all you can rely on. Aristos and high-bourgeois could always afford individualism and eccentricity, and their culture was always relatively more tolerant of it. Strivers signal with 🞵🞵🞵.

Though Do-As-I-Say-Not-As-I-Do is also very common among this class of people. It would definitely be par for the course to see emerge a decent-sized class of people preaching social conservatism in public, and living a more hedonistic lifestyle in private.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by esquire

When I think of the underclass, social conservatism is not really one of the distinguishing characteristics that comes to mind...

No? I'd say it can be kind of... honoured in the breach. Rosary beads on a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵's dresser, drinking alcohol with your boys and rolling the kuffar walking through Rinkeby Torg. Almost like the dutiful nuclear families of Hornstull and the Annex. Signifiers and lives have complex relationships.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

No? I'd say it can be kind of... honoured in the breach. Rosary beads on a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵's dresser, drinking alcohol with your boys and rolling the kuffar walking through Rinkeby Torg. Almost like the dutiful nuclear families of Hornstull and the Annex. Signifiers and lives have complex relationships.

It seems more realistic in the historical sense, when reliance on the group was much stronger and involved higher stakes than what we see today. For at least the last 50 years you haven't really had to profess allegiance to any kind of group cultural values to access the essentials. The government provides that for you without any judgment concerning what you are doing with your private life.

When I think of the underclass these days, things like teenage pregnancy, children out of wedlock, abortions, non-married relationships, alcohol/drug use, etc. are what come to mind. There is no "rosary beads on a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵's dresser" required pretext of social conservative values the way one might have seen in Dublin circa 1932, for instance.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by esquire

When I think of the underclass these days, things like teenage pregnancy, children out of wedlock, abortions, non-married relationships, alcohol/drug use, etc. are what come to mind. There is no "rosary beads on a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵's dresser" required pretext of social conservative values the way one might have seen in Dublin circa 1932, for instance.

This sounds a bit like the "white trash" underclass, though, and we were talking about the context of immigration from more conservative cultures. Perhaps I have been in Scandinavia too long to properly see it the Canadian way, but that kind of sub-working underclass of drinkers, itinerant and/or intermittent labourers, tweakers and all that are really in numerical decline here relative to the newer thing in which clan identity kind of bridges a really weird gap between near-militant religious teachings and low-level organized crime.

This is really the animating force here in places like Rinkeby, Botkyrka, Sodtertalje. In Sodertalje, there was even a kind of mutual recognition whereby the Hells Angels, the hot rod club, the rock bar and a few other "institutions" of white working-to-underclass life set up shop by the harbour and left the other side of the highway to the Assyrians*. This was an agreement over the sale of amphetamines, mostly.

(* who are themselves a real anomaly, as Christians. They have disputes with nearby Muslim enclaves that can turn violent, but all in all, the Assyrians of Sodertalje are doing fairly well compared to the Somalians and Afghans of other working-to-underclass areas.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

This sounds a bit like the "white trash" underclass, though, and we were talking about the context of immigration from more conservative cultures. Perhaps I have been in Scandinavia too long to properly see it the Canadian way, but that kind of sub-working underclass of drinkers, itinerant and/or intermittent labourers, tweakers and all that are really in numerical decline here relative to the newer thing in which clan identity kind of bridges a really weird gap between near-militant religious teachings and low-level organized crime.

This is really the animating force here in places like Rinkeby, Botkyrka, Sodtertalje. In Sodertalje, there was even a kind of mutual recognition whereby the Hells Angels, the hot rod club, the rock bar and a few other "institutions" of white working-to-underclass life set up shop by the harbour and left the other side of the highway to the Assyrians*. This was an agreement over the sale of amphetamines, mostly.

(* who are themselves a real anomaly, as Christians. They have disputes with nearby Muslim enclaves that can turn violent, but all in all, the Assyrians of Sodertalje are doing fairly well compared to the Somalians and Afghans of other working-to-underclass areas.)

I think the highlighted (life on the razor's edge between cultures) exists across social classes even.

I mean, in recent years I've had more than one kid at my house eating pork or drinking alcohol, or both, and then saying "you guys won't tell my parents, will you?"

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by esquire

When I think of the underclass these days, things like teenage pregnancy, children out of wedlock, abortions, non-married relationships, alcohol/drug use, etc. are what come to mind. There is no "rosary beads on a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵's dresser" required pretext of social conservative values the way one might have seen in Dublin circa 1932, for instance.

There's statistical evidence that the first four (all 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵, tisk tisk religious stigmas) become more prevalent when heavily christian communities set blanket bans on 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 education, access to contraceptives, public access to abortions, etc. In other words, a reversion to classic Western social conservative values is correlated with each of those markers.

Canada isn't importing much of that kind of puritanism anymore though.

[travis3000]

Canadian oil is now trading in NEGATIVE numbers, at -0.01C . All time historic low.

WTI oil plunged 36% this morning and is now down to $11 a barrel....a multi decade low.

Simply insane I didn't think prices would drop this much.

[theman23]

Nvm

[misher]

It is interesting how Vancouver is an unique case. You usually have conservatives pushing against immigration/foreigners because they believe they are poor and need welfare to support them.

But in Vancouver you have progressive/socialists arguing against immigration/foreigners because they are rich and thus compete with them to buy things.

Honestly as an immigrant you can't win, either your too poor or too rich. The left only wants poor foreigners and the right only wants rich ones.

The left wants foreigners to stay in the slums where they feel they belong and the right wants foreigners to be able to afford to live in nice neighbourhoods.