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  #9601  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2020, 7:05 PM
Dartguard Dartguard is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
If there is any comfort to be taken in this, it is that Public Health almost always overstates the risk involved in these sorts of things, which is then amplified by the news media and sites like FB and Twitter to make it sound even worse. Not to say there is not risk here or that this is not serious, but if you think back to H1N1 they set up massive public immunization programs for citizens but in the end the result proved not much different than the regular seasonal flu. This does appear to be more easily transmitted than many flus and as of now there is not a useful vaccine, which makes this riskier for sure. But it won't be until it is all over that we will be able to assess whether the disruption of life and tanking the world economy was necessary. None of which makes any difference to those who were afflicted and those close to them of course.

But keep in mind that this is the same group of Public Health officials who waged a false war against vaping last fall, convinced the NS govt to pass ill-advised legislation, and got the Feds to run alarmist TV ads stating it is a huge problem and health risk for youth which is absurd. Meanwhile we are seeing virtually no messaging from them or our govt on weed or hard drug use by those same young people. Go figure.
I hear you Keith but let me add some real information. My Brother is one of the ICU doctors that will be on the front line of this. He was a little shocked at the "over reaction" until he read about the Northern Italian experience.
An Italian athlete from the region returned from Wuhan not feeling well and visited the local hospital three times over a ten day period. He was told to go home all three times but Italians are a passionate touchy feely people. As such they greet each other very closely. He had ten days to interact in this retirement community. The town has among the largest proportion of elderly in Italy. When folks got sick there was no resources or people to take care of the complex variations of sickness that showed up.

My Brother is terrified that our system may be only able to do Combat Triage medicine. Anyone with co morbidity ( heart disease, diabetes, Asthma, Kidney disease) will be too complex a set of problems to use the limited resources available. Literally, you will be sent home to pray and hope. N.S. has a disproportionately large elderly cohort that are used to doing things their way. Maybe not this time. Stay the F$%^ home everyone.
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  #9602  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 1:02 AM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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My contact in China says the rest of the world should do what China has done. Batten down the hatches and do what the medical experts tell you to do.
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  #9603  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2020, 11:21 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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The reality is that there have been similar results worldwide, and the countries that didn't go to extreme measures have thusfar suffered greater consequences, so it's hard to conclude that local officials are acting irrationally. We have the benefit of the experiences of places like Italy, so there is no excuse for inaction at this point.

Regardless of how difficult it is, or how hard it may be to imagine the seriousness of this situation, stay home if you can, wash your hands and keep your distance from people if you have to go out. Stay safe!
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  #9604  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2020, 1:00 AM
MeEtc MeEtc is offline
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Received notice that there will be overnight construction happening on Bayers Rd starting fairly soon.
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  #9605  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2020, 1:31 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by Colin May View Post
My contact in China says the rest of the world should do what China has done. Batten down the hatches and do what the medical experts tell you to do.
Lots of people have opinions. Fortunately the ones that are contrary to those fueling the runaway train have not yet been shouted down completely:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coronavir...ntists-1.5502423?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar
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  #9606  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2020, 7:47 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
Lots of people have opinions. Fortunately the ones that are contrary to those fueling the runaway train have not yet been shouted down completely:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coronavir...ntists-1.5502423?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar
My take is this: We don't know how far is too far. We do know that in place like Italy, and very soon France and Spain, that didn't take social distancing seriously several weeks ago, there have been huge numbers of infections, and there will be far more deaths than needed due to overwhelmed health systems. There is no excuse not to be maximally cautious right now. From that CBC story: "Where there is reasonable evidence of an impending threat to public health, it is inappropriate to require proof of causation beyond a reasonable doubt before taking steps to avert the threat," Campbell wrote in a chapter called "Spring of Fear," citing Justice Horace Krever, who presided over Canada's tainted blood inquiry.

No one wants to spend the next (three? six? 12? 18?) months sitting at home and living largely online. No one wants to be cut off from friends and family. I think there is a lot of good cause for optimism that these worst-case scenario may be mitigated, too: pharmaceutical interventions; an unexpectedly robust herd immunity response based on what may end up being large numbers of asymptomatic and now immune (or at least infection-resistant) individuals; contact tracing and swift lockdowns in isolated areas to contain outbreaks.

What happens in South Korea, China, and Japan in the next few weeks will tell us a lot.

Until then, I don't see any reason to be less cautious. We've seen in Italy what the "meh, it's not so bad" response can do. The U.S. looks to be on a not-so-different path. Let's keep this thing bottled up as much as possible, and hope that evidence emerges in the coming weeks that will really tell us what the rest of 2020 looks like.
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  #9607  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2020, 7:54 PM
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Until then, I don't see any reason to be less cautious. We've seen in Italy what the "meh, it's not so bad" response can do. The U.S. looks to be on a not-so-different path. Let's keep this thing bottled up as much as possible, and hope that evidence emerges in the coming weeks that will really tell us what the rest of 2020 looks like.
There is an economic and social cost to the anti-coronavirus measures though, and a lot of people are just waving their hands about death rates and exponential growth. The death rates are not meaningful because testing hasn't been sufficient to estimate the total number of cases. Exponential growth is a mathematical model which may or may not describe what's happening.

I think we are bad at looking at risk or comparing health problems or death to financial implications. When average or poorer people lose income it has a real impact on their well-being but we tend not to quantify it, while 1 death of an 84 year old who tested positive for coronavirus makes the news in North America right now.

I agree that it makes sense to take strong measures early on. But it'll be important to try to relax as quickly as we safely can to keep the economy from being seriously damaged. I am hoping we'll quickly see a reduction in new cases and we can gradually try new things like re-opening restaurants. Maybe if people are more careful (just doing things like washing hands or staying home when sick) and we do lots of testing, transmission will drop below the rate at which it spreads uncontrollably through the population.
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  #9608  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2020, 9:02 PM
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There is an economic and social cost to the anti-coronavirus measures though, and a lot of people are just waving their hands about death rates and exponential growth. The death rates are not meaningful because testing hasn't been sufficient to estimate the total number of cases. Exponential growth is a mathematical model which may or may not describe what's happening.

I think we are bad at looking at risk or comparing health problems or death to financial implications. When average or poorer people lose income it has a real impact on their well-being but we tend not to quantify it, while 1 death of an 84 year old who tested positive for coronavirus makes the news in North America right now.

I agree that it makes sense to take strong measures early on. But it'll be important to try to relax as quickly as we safely can to keep the economy from being seriously damaged. I am hoping we'll quickly see a reduction in new cases and we can gradually try new things like re-opening restaurants. Maybe if people are more careful (just doing things like washing hands or staying home when sick) and we do lots of testing, transmission will drop below the rate at which it spreads uncontrollably through the population.
Exactly, and that is what nobody seems to be thinking about. The economy is the biggest victim in all of this, not just the stock markets, but businsses and jobs and the ability of people to make a living. So you want to get those things back on track as soon as it is practical to do so, yet there is a very real risk that the Strangs and McNeils and Trudeaus of the world will resist doing so for fear of backlash when the inevitable (hopefully small) negative consequence to doing that occurs. It is far easier for them to keep restaurants and bars closed than it is to face a mob of media wanting them to take the blame for a late-developing case that goes bad.
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  #9609  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2020, 1:03 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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There is an economic and social cost to the anti-coronavirus measures though, and a lot of people are just waving their hands about death rates and exponential growth. The death rates are not meaningful because testing hasn't been sufficient to estimate the total number of cases. Exponential growth is a mathematical model which may or may not describe what's happening.

I think we are bad at looking at risk or comparing health problems or death to financial implications. When average or poorer people lose income it has a real impact on their well-being but we tend not to quantify it, while 1 death of an 84 year old who tested positive for coronavirus makes the news in North America right now.

I agree that it makes sense to take strong measures early on. But it'll be important to try to relax as quickly as we safely can to keep the economy from being seriously damaged. I am hoping we'll quickly see a reduction in new cases and we can gradually try new things like re-opening restaurants. Maybe if people are more careful (just doing things like washing hands or staying home when sick) and we do lots of testing, transmission will drop below the rate at which it spreads uncontrollably through the population.
I wouldn't call it hand-waving, nor would I call exponential growth merely thoeretical--it's currently happening, and has already resulted in the nightmarish swamping of medical systems in Asia and Europe. A longer, protracted, controlled pandemic enables us to get some handle on a weird and temporary new normal, with a lot of remote work and the like.

I agree that as immunity slowly builds (hopefully) and we deploy frequent and wide-scale testing, we'll hopefully be able to soften isolation measures.
Of course it will be important to relax containment measures as soon as feasible, and I have optimism we won't need 18 months of severe isolation. But the world's most knowledgeable infectious-disease experts are basically united on saying that we need that, for now, in order to prevent totally needless mass death. Reports of 1-2 million dead in the US are completely credible, if no containment measures are taken. Besides the human toll, that wouldn't exactly be an economy-booster.

As to Keith's "the economy is the biggest victim," uh, no.
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  #9610  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2020, 2:59 PM
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Jonovision Jonovision is offline
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Not sure if this has a thread yet but the signs went up on site with a link to this proposal for the Dennis site.

http://pressblock.ca/





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  #9611  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2020, 3:16 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Looks much like the proposal I had seen years ago of an extension to One Govt Place. And looks about as forgettable. However I'm sure the province will be the main tenant and consolidate more offices next to Province House.
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  #9612  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2020, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
As to Keith's "the economy is the biggest victim," uh, no.
Tell that to the millions who have or soon will lose their jobs and be destitute, or the people who have been saving for retirement and had a good chunk of that wiped out along with their hopes.
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  #9613  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2020, 5:03 PM
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I don't dislike it... I think the N.S. government set limits to heights on this building so as not to overshadow the legislature building. It does compliment the Dennis building.
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  #9614  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2020, 5:03 PM
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Not sure if this has a thread yet but the signs went up on site with a link to this proposal for the Dennis site.

http://pressblock.ca/
Thanks for posting this. I have made a new project thread.
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  #9615  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2020, 5:38 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Tell that to the millions who have or soon will lose their jobs and be destitute, or the people who have been saving for retirement and had a good chunk of that wiped out along with their hopes.
Okay, let me put it is way: if we take social-distancing and curve-flattening seriously, the economy will be the biggest victim. If we try to strike some kind of balance in the short term, we could end up with vast numbers of dead. In the short-term, we need to swallow this bitter pill and minimize infections. We'll know more about he viability of lifting restrictions as more data come out of Asia in the next few weeks.
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  #9616  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2020, 8:05 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
I wouldn't call it hand-waving, nor would I call exponential growth merely thoeretical--it's currently happening, and has already resulted in the nightmarish swamping of medical systems in Asia and Europe. A longer, protracted, controlled pandemic enables us to get some handle on a weird and temporary new normal, with a lot of remote work and the like.

I agree that as immunity slowly builds (hopefully) and we deploy frequent and wide-scale testing, we'll hopefully be able to soften isolation measures.
Of course it will be important to relax containment measures as soon as feasible, and I have optimism we won't need 18 months of severe isolation. But the world's most knowledgeable infectious-disease experts are basically united on saying that we need that, for now, in order to prevent totally needless mass death. Reports of 1-2 million dead in the US are completely credible, if no containment measures are taken. Besides the human toll, that wouldn't exactly be an economy-booster.

As to Keith's "the economy is the biggest victim," uh, no.
Well said, and I agree.
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  #9617  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2020, 2:29 AM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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Talking to a tradesman today who told me he expected construction sites to be closing down soon and that he expects to be out of work in a few days. Lack of supplies.
My hunch is that construction financing may also be an issue; with lenders not willing to advance further funds in an uncertain climate.
Force majeure is alive and well.
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  #9618  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2020, 4:14 AM
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There is an economic and social cost to the anti-coronavirus measures though, and a lot of people are just waving their hands about death rates and exponential growth. The death rates are not meaningful because testing hasn't been sufficient to estimate the total number of cases. Exponential growth is a mathematical model which may or may not describe what's happening.

I think we are bad at looking at risk or comparing health problems or death to financial implications. When average or poorer people lose income it has a real impact on their well-being but we tend not to quantify it, while 1 death of an 84 year old who tested positive for coronavirus makes the news in North America right now.

I agree that it makes sense to take strong measures early on. But it'll be important to try to relax as quickly as we safely can to keep the economy from being seriously damaged. I am hoping we'll quickly see a reduction in new cases and we can gradually try new things like re-opening restaurants. Maybe if people are more careful (just doing things like washing hands or staying home when sick) and we do lots of testing, transmission will drop below the rate at which it spreads uncontrollably through the population.
I agree with the main points regarding the difficulty in comparing harm in the form of deaths and illness to harm from economic hardship. Someone already pointed out that exponential growth isn't theoretical when it comes to disease (or many other applications) so I won't belabour that point. What I did want to mention is that I worry people may be overly cavalier with the death rate due to it being mainly in seniors. It might be tempting to say that since the average life expectancy in Canada is 82 years, that someone who is 84 is basically about to die anyway so having it done by a disease that would be survivable for most younger people is just nature taking its course and not worth too much societal disruption to prevent (I'm not saying you believe this, but I've encountered people who seem to). But in reality, the average life expectancy doesn't say a whole lot about how long a person can expect to live once they already get to that age because it includes all the people who died earlier of any other cause (cancer or other illness, homicide/suicide, car or various other accidents, etc.) So if you manage to survive all those things and make it to your 80s, you could very well live another decade or more.

That being said, it's possible that many of the elderly people who succumb to the disease are more frail than average and may not have lived as long, but we don't really know. To understand the actual loss of life, lets imagine that all the people who died could have expected an average of just another 5 years of life. At the time I'm writing this there have been 14,600 deaths globally based on this link. That equates to 890 whole 82 year lifetimes or the deaths of 1973 fourty-five year olds who would otherwise have lived to 82. Any disease that was highly infectious, present in Canada, and that already killed nearly 2000 people of average age globally, I think we'd be every bit as cautious. And really even if 14,600 people lost 5 years of their life to say imprisonment, that would also be a tremendous tragedy.

Another thing that's important to remember is that even if the disease doesn't kill a person, it can seriously disrupt their life and create incredible discomfort. We've all heard the reports of people who had few or no symptoms, but there are many more people who get extremely ill, sometimes to the point of seeking medical attention. That has huge economic implications in and of itself even without a single death. Even diseases such as cold and flu have a huge impact on the economy and people's quality of life due to things like decreased productivity. So even without a single death a disease that is more infectious than the flu and that there isn't a vaccine for would have a huge affect on the economy. Particularly given how fast it spreads. There would be a huge proportion of the public sick at once putting people out of commission indiscriminately of how important a service they or their industry provide.
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  #9619  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2020, 12:32 PM
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As to Keith's "the economy is the biggest victim," uh, no.
The economy is in trouble whether or not we let this thing run rampant. The question is, do we do everything we can to minimize the human cost? Or do we try and cash out at a massive human cost? Ignoring social distancing isn't going to make this go away.
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  #9620  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2020, 4:46 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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The economy is in trouble whether or not we let this thing run rampant. The question is, do we do everything we can to minimize the human cost? Or do we try and cash out at a massive human cost? Ignoring social distancing isn't going to make this go away.
Nor can the economy of the country continue going at the present rate of shutdown for months. Governments can only print so much money before they start to incur consequences. The problem is that once you hitch your policy wagon to the Public Health train it is very difficult to disengage since for them the balance of risk is a very tenuous concept. It will be interesting to see what happens when the rate of case growth slows and people start demanding a return to some sort of normalcy. Much of the public has been so scared by govts and the media that we could see civil unrest between the two sides. The current police state is foreign to Canadians and I suspect many will not take it well if it lasts very long.
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