Downtown Vancouver Updates

[SFUVancouver]

Remember when the Province refused to properly size False Creek Elementary, because "why would there be kids practically downtown?"

And remember when the Province refused to properly size Elsie Roy, because "why would there be kids downtown?"

And remember when the Province refused to properly size Crosstown Elementary, because "why would there be even more kids downtown?"

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that when the Olympic Village Elementary school(s) go ahead, the Province will refuse to properly size them, because "why would there be still more kids practically downtown?"

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Remember when the Province refused to properly size False Creek Elementary, because "why would there be kids practically downtown?"

And remember when the Province refused to properly size Elsie Roy, because "why would there be kids downtown?"

And remember when the Province refused to properly size Crosstown Elementary, because "why would there be even more kids downtown?"

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that when the Olympic Village Elementary school(s) go ahead, the Province will refuse to properly size them, because "why would there be still more kids practically downtown?"

Well, elementary schools aren't supposed to be huge. They should be small and numerous. I think ~300 kids is typical, 2 classes per grade, give or take.

The VSB and Ministry of Education love to point fingers. The City of Van has been pretty good about allocating the space, which is about the extent of what they can do I think.

Coal Harbour was planned before OV. It's probably not the highest demand area, but I'm sure the school would fill up Day 1.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by giallo

The problem is that there isn't anywhere for them to go. You'll just end up shuffling the homeless to one area or another. It's never-ending.

Sometimes people straighten up more when they really have nowhere to go. Living in Shanghai and Seoul, you should know better.

I don't believe in spoiling people into improving themselves. Discipline needs to be instilled sometimes.

[ranvancan]

Originally Posted by giallo

The problem is that there isn't anywhere for them to go. You'll just end up shuffling the homeless to one area or another. It's never-ending.

Giallo, your thinking process here is EXACTLY this city's problem, all those in charge here talk like this and NOTHING gets done. I am with VIN on this and it is due time to flex the iron fist. Enforce, enforce, enforce. Get them off the streets, it is disgusting to walk around this city. The mess is by far the worst I've seen.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Vin

Sometimes people straighten up more when they really have nowhere to go. Living in Shanghai and Seoul, you should know better.

I don't believe in spoiling people into improving themselves. Discipline needs to be instilled sometimes.

Originally Posted by ranvancan

Giallo, your thinking process here is EXACTLY this city's problem, all those in charge here talk like this and NOTHING gets done. I am with VIN on this and it is due time to flex the iron fist. Enforce, enforce, enforce. Get them off the streets, it is disgusting to walk around this city. The mess is by far the worst I've seen.

Agreed .... but.... if the homeless people are cleared off the street, and if they have no home .... where wil they go? The homeless shelters are normally temporary.
If these people do not work/are unemployable, what is the solutuion? They cannot pay rent. They cannot buy anything. Therefore, who will oversee their futures? The long term outcome?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Vin

Sometimes people straighten up more when they really have nowhere to go. Living in Shanghai and Seoul, you should know better.

I don't believe in spoiling people into improving themselves. Discipline needs to be instilled sometimes.

I don't know about you, but I've actually been to Seoul. You're right, the homeless aren't out on the streets. Instead they're in the metro stations and underground passages where the rich don't have to see them as much.

I don't know the solution to homelessness, or if there even is one, but it almost certainly isn't banning them from existing. Unless your solution is going back to Victorian era debtors prison?

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by Vin

Sometimes people straighten up more when they really have nowhere to go. Living in Shanghai and Seoul, you should know better.

I don't believe in spoiling people into improving themselves. Discipline needs to be instilled sometimes.

I don't think you understand how human psychology works....
...AT ALL!

Also, homeless people are typically that way not because they enjoy living in the streets and offending your sensibilities by existing and occupying your consciousness, but rather because they usually have nowhere to go.

So postulating that you can solve the problem by "instilling discipline" (however that would work. Would we flog them? Or just rack them?) and getting them to "straighten up",.. by,..."giving them nowhere to go",...kind of seems like circular reasoning at its worst and redundant logic, no?

[ranvancan]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

I don't think you understand how human psychology works....
...AT ALL!

Also, homeless people are typically that way not because they enjoy living in the streets and offending your sensibilities by existing and occupying your consciousness, but rather because they usually have nowhere to go.

So postulating that you can solve the problem by "instilling discipline" (however that would work. Would we flog them? Or just rack them?) and getting them to "straighten up",.. by,..."giving them nowhere to go",...kind of seems like circular reasoning at its worst and redundant logic, no?

Well, how about we try one of two things first........put a progressive thinking committee together, since the existing civic govs can't seem to figure it out, and let them come up with a new well thought out aggressive solution using OUR tax dollars properly, or start looking at other cities from other countries that seem to have figured it out for themselves and start a NEW BEST PRACTICE......:shrug
I am sure, Spr0ckets, you and me are paying lots of taxes, this for me, is TOP priority. And until then, I will remain embarrassed yet vocal about the social condition of my home town for 55 years.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I don't know about you, but I've actually been to Seoul. You're right, the homeless aren't out on the streets. Instead they're in the metro stations and underground passages where the rich don't have to see them as much.

I don't know the solution to homelessness, or if there even is one, but it almost certainly isn't banning them from existing. Unless your solution is going back to Victorian era debtors prison?

Solution is simple, but not with the bureaucracy and ideology that we have in place.

For those that are able to rejoin society and just in need of a helping hand - built free or near free housing in non premium area of Metro.

For those that are too far gone for a myriad of mental health issues, provide permanent long term medically supervised care.

The numbers of homeless are not that large relative to Metro population, this is a fixable problem in Vancouver.

The will and ideology is just not there. SJW's somehow find it more palatable to allow people to suffer on the street in the guise of compassion instead of pursuing real solutions that help everyone involved, most of which those suffering on the streets.

[ranvancan]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

I don't think you understand how human psychology works....
...AT ALL!

Also, homeless people are typically that way not because they enjoy living in the streets and offending your sensibilities by existing and occupying your consciousness, but rather because they usually have nowhere to go.

So postulating that you can solve the problem by "instilling discipline" (however that would work. Would we flog them? Or just rack them?) and getting them to "straighten up",.. by,..."giving them nowhere to go",...kind of seems like circular reasoning at its worst and redundant logic, no?

Well, how about we try one of two things first........put a progressive thinking committee together, since the existing civic govs can't seem to figure it out, and let them come up with a new well thought out aggressive solution using OUR tax dollars properly, or start looking at other cities from other countries that seem to have figured it out for themselves and start a NEW BEST PRACTICE......
I am sure, Spr0ckets, you and me are paying lots of taxes, this for me, is TOP priority. And until then, I will remain embarrassed yet vocal about the social condition of my home town for 55 years.
I am not just venting at you, I am simply just sick and tired of seeing NOTHING being done.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by rofina

For those that are able to rejoin society and just in need of a helping hand - built free or near free housing in non premium area of Metro.

For those that are too far gone for a myriad of mental health issues, provide permanent long term medically supervised care.

This is already more or less our policy, people just don't see it. There are plenty of people that are temporarily homeless but a helping hand pulls them out. There are also plenty of people in long term mental health care, Riverview is set to reopen next year.

The problem is the inbetweeners, as it usually is for a lot of social issues. We can't institutionalize all people with minor behavioural issues, or anger issues, or intelligence issues, or what have you. We've ruled that under our constitution you can't hold someone who is of sound mind against their will. It seems like addiction issues fall under this umbrella. On the other hand, some people simply choose to remain homeless.

It may be an issue you just have to deal with and accept in a major regional city. Even the Soviet Union had homelessness, so if the USSR which was famous for building cities of monolithic apartment flats couldn't house everyone, how can we expect to?

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by ranvancan

Well, how about we try one of two things first........put a progressive thinking committee together, since the existing civic govs can't seem to figure it out, and let them come up with a new well thought out aggressive solution using OUR tax dollars properly, or start looking at other cities from other countries that seem to have figured it out for themselves and start a NEW BEST PRACTICE......:shrug
I am sure, Spr0ckets, you and me are paying lots of taxes, this for me, is TOP priority. And until then, I will remain embarrassed yet vocal about the social condition of my home town for 55 years.

There's nothing wrong with being embarrassed about it as it affects your home town. After all, it's indicative and emblematic of some societal failure at some level - whether or not we each deem ourselves personally responsible for it or for causing it.
But we are (collectively)responsible for what happens about it whether most want to admit it or not. And that could simply be through our tax dollars if nothing else.

I just found it odd the notion that someone would believe that you could ever in any way "discipline" it out of the city as some sort of a solution, as if it was a (psychological) problem or a sickness that you could just correct with the right medication -all while either ignoring or just being wilfully plain ignorant of the myriad of issues to go into resulting in homelessness in the first place and all the context that surrounds it, as you cure the symptoms.

It's not unique to Vancouver and literally every single city on the face of this planet suffers from it (except perhaps, the Vatican City ), and a lot of them have tried (and failed) with a bunch of ways of trying to solve it, with most of that failure predicated on misunderstanding what causes the problems or how best to deal with it.
Attempting to "incentivize" (or whatever you want to call it) the homeless to move out of the areas you merely don't want to see them in while not really dealing with what led to them being homeless in the first place is no different than moving dirt and clutter from one corner of your apartment (or from all over it) to a different corner just out of your field of view and then patting yourself on the back for a job well done cleaning your place.
Just give it a week.
Except this isn't dirt and clutter we're talking about.
These are human beings.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by rofina

Solution is simple, but not with the bureaucracy and ideology that we have in place.

For those that are able to rejoin society and just in need of a helping hand - built free or near free housing in non premium area of Metro.

For those that are too far gone for a myriad of mental health issues, provide permanent long term medically supervised care.

The numbers of homeless are not that large relative to Metro population, this is a fixable problem in Vancouver.

The will and ideology is just not there. SJW's somehow find it more palatable to allow people to suffer on the street in the guise of compassion instead of pursuing real solutions that help everyone involved, most of which those suffering on the streets.

Hey !! I was going to post, but you beat me to it. Thank you. In my opinion, the most precise, solution-oriented and practical idea yet.
Like an effective medical intervention, this would treat the condition itself, and not just the symptoms, as with nearly all other attempts to date.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

There's nothing wrong with being embarrassed about it as it affects your home town. After all, it's indicative and emblematic of some societal failure at some level - whether or not we each deem ourselves personally responsible for it or for causing it.
But we are (collectively)responsible for what happens about it whether most want to admit it or not. And that could simply be through our tax dollars if nothing else.

I just found it odd the notion that someone would believe that you could ever in any way "discipline" it out of the city as some sort of a solution, as if it was a (psychological) problem or a sickness that you could just correct with the right medication -all while either ignoring or just being wilfully plain ignorant of the myriad of issues to go into resulting in homelessness in the first place and all the context that surrounds it, as you cure the symptoms.

It's not unique to Vancouver and literally every single city on the face of this planet suffers from it (except perhaps, the Vatican City ), and a lot of them have tried (and failed) with a bunch of ways of trying to solve it, with most of that failure predicated on misunderstanding what causes the problems or how best to deal with it.

Attempting to "incentivize" (or whatever you want to call it) the homeless to move out of the areas you merely don't want to see them in while not really dealing with what led to them being homeless in the first place is no different than moving dirt and clutter from one corner of your apartment (or from all over it) to a different corner just out of your field of view and then patting yourself on the back for a job well done cleaning your place.
Just give it a week.

Except this isn't dirt and clutter we're talking about.
These are human beings.

Thanks for pointing out that we sometimes seem to think that we're uniquely challenged with homelessness, while in fact we're doing better than other west coast North American cities. Which is not to suggest we shouldn't do more.

Perhaps this topic should have its own thread? Then it won't keep derailing the Downtown Updates - which none of this conversation has been about.

Greater Vancouver has around 2.5 million people, and the last homeless count identified 1,032 unsheltered homeless, and 2,600 in shelters. There's a new count later this year.

King County (Seattle) has about 2.2 million people with 5,200 unsheltered homeless, and just under 6,000 in shelters.

Multnomah County (Portland and Gresham) has only 810,000 people, but over 2,000 unsheltered homeless and another 2,000 in shelters.

San Francisco County has a population of 880,000 and they have 5,180 unsheltered homeless and another 2,800 in shelters.

Metro Los Angeles (the central part of the city) has 1.2 million residents, with 12,281 unsheltered homeless, and around 4,100 in shelters.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by ranvancan

Giallo, your thinking process here is EXACTLY this city's problem, all those in charge here talk like this and NOTHING gets done. I am with VIN on this and it is due time to flex the iron fist. Enforce, enforce, enforce. Get them off the streets, it is disgusting to walk around this city. The mess is by far the worst I've seen.

Originally Posted by Vin

Sometimes people straighten up more when they really have nowhere to go. Living in Shanghai and Seoul, you should know better.

I don't believe in spoiling people into improving themselves. Discipline needs to be instilled sometimes.

Shanghai and Seoul have all of their mental ill in well-funded hospitals and care facilities. We decided to close most of ours down to save money on taxes, so this is what you get.

Most people don't want to live on the streets. It's dangerous and stressful. Those that eek a life on the streets for years and years are generally not well enough to fall in to regular society. Holding a job when you're a schizophrenic isn't easy.

So what do we do? I'm all for having my taxes raised if it means these people can get the care they deserve, as I'm sure others would be as well, so why hasn't this happened? Why do we let our most vulnerable fester in these kinds of conditions? So yes, Vin, we should know better.

[jlousa]

The reason we closed down the institutions wasn't to save money. The government at the time listened to the popular opinion of the time that it was best to house these people in the community. Turns out as well intentioned as they were it wasn't the ideal solution. I'm also sure this approach is far more expensive too. Think some people do need institutionalization, others can be better served in the community. The problem is if that community is unhealthy (dtes) then they aren preyed on constantly and don't have a real chance to make a go of it. The solution will need to be multifaceted and is definitely not continuing on with the status quo.

[mcminsen]

Originally Posted by mcminsen

Sept.7 '19, my pics

Feb.21 '20, my pics

[giallo]

Originally Posted by jlousa

The reason we closed down the institutions wasn't to save money. The government at the time listened to the popular opinion of the time that it was best to house these people in the community. Turns out as well intentioned as they were it wasn't the ideal solution. I'm also sure this approach is far more expensive too. Think some people do need institutionalization, others can be better served in the community. The problem is if that community is unhealthy (dtes) then they aren preyed on constantly and don't have a real chance to make a go of it. The solution will need to be multifaceted and is definitely not continuing on with the status quo.

Thanks for the reply, jlousa. I do remember hearing that they had hoped citizens would take their family members in, and help care for them, but it ended up being too much of a burden due to how severe a lot of the mental illnesses were.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by giallo

Shanghai and Seoul have all of their mental ill in well-funded hospitals and care facilities. We decided to close most of ours down to save money on taxes, so this is what you get.

Most people don't want to live on the streets. It's dangerous and stressful. Those that eek a life on the streets for years and years are generally not well enough to fall in to regular society. Holding a job when you're a schizophrenic isn't easy.

So what do we do? I'm all for having my taxes raised if it means these people can get the care they deserve, as I'm sure others would be as well, so why hasn't this happened? Why do we let our most vulnerable fester in these kinds of conditions? So yes, Vin, we should know better.

You should also know that in Shanghai and Seoul, middle class people pay way lower income taxes, at 10% or less perhaps than we do? And yet they can build better facilities for their at-risk residents. I'm not saying we can be exactly like them, but we are not even trying despite our high taxes. We simply give up and keep coming with excuses like our warmer climate attracting the homeless to settle here, and that we are overwhelmed and can't do anything about it. The fact is 90% of our homeless population are local residents, and its the failure of society and government that bring about this situation.

Also, have you questioned yourself about the logic of always having to defend our huge homelessness on people with mental problems and not enough treatment facilities? How is it possible that our population has a much higher percentage of people having mental health issues than other cities in the world (the US notwithstanding) Perhaps you should know that alcohol and drug abuses can severely damage brains and bodies too, which brings me back to my original comment that our laws are too loose on addictions and drug crimes.

When we crack down hard on these social problems, we would then have a truly world class downtown.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by Vin

You should also know that in Shanghai and Seoul, middle class people pay way lower income taxes, at 10% or less perhaps than we do? And yet they can build better facilities for their at-risk residents. I'm not saying we can be exactly like them, but we are not even trying despite our high taxes. We simply give up and keep coming with excuses like our warmer climate attracting the homeless to settle here, and that we are overwhelmed and can't do anything about it. The fact is 90% of our homeless population are local residents, and its the failure of society and government that bring about this situation.

Also, have you questioned yourself about the logic of always having to defend our huge homelessness on people with mental problems and not enough treatment facilities? How is it possible that our population has a much higher percentage of people having mental health issues than other cities in the world (the US notwithstanding) Perhaps you should know that alcohol and drug abuses can severely damage brains and bodies too, which brings me back to my original comment that our laws are too loose on addictions and drug crimes.

When we crack down hard on these social problems, we would then have a truly world class downtown.

Source, please.


I'm not defending our homeless population, merely pointing out its cause and effect. I don't have any solid answers to the growing homelessness issues we face, but I don't pretend I do. Canada is a free country, and with that comes issues tied to those freedoms. If you desire to have Canada run like China, where personal freedoms, movement and speech are repressed or outright illegal then you're in the wrong country. Comparing Canada to China in this regard is pointless.

And Korea has homeless people. A lot, in fact. Go to Seoul Station, and you'll see them passed out all over the steps of the train station, entrance/exit tunnels and on the sidewalks, and it isn't just a couple of people. This isn't a downtown east side situation, but it's a problem that even Seoul faces.

As for drugs, yes, they are a problem, especially for at-risk people, but what is your solution? Punish the users, and fill the prisons? Do you know how much that will cost?

So what are your solutions, Vin? You seem very vocal about it, so you must have thought about some ways to solve these complex issues. Please share.