Questions about Ottawa

[begratto]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not many people with only high school French can get their levels. Even for those who can, how many Anglos do French for every year of high school? People are trying to get their qualifications for university. A lot of university programs require multiple prerequisites.

Yet here in Quebec we manage to have compulsory ESL classes for every single year from grade 1 to secondary 5 (grade 11 for you guys), then 2 more years in cegep, become more or less bilingual (depending on one's exposure to English), and still get all of our qualifications to get accepted in university.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by begratto

Yet here in Quebec we manage to have compulsory ESL classes for every single year from grade 1 to secondary 5 (grade 11 for you guys), then 2 more years in cegep, become more or less bilingual (depending on one's exposure to English), and still get all of our qualifications to get accepted in university.

You know what they say... when the heart's not in it...

It's probably not the case for everyone posting on here but there is definitely out there a latent resentment and refusal to recognize that French has equal official status to English at the federal level.

What's ironic is that often the same people who resent official bilingualism (in the public service or in other places, like post office or national park signs in Alberta) are the same ones who are virulently opposed to any form of greater autonomy for Quebec - a solution which might actually reduce a lot of the irritants they think they have to endure because of bilingualism.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not many people with only high school French can get their levels.

Not sure what you are basing this statement on. In any event, my point was that people who even do just the mandatory courses are already at a level that opens up most government jobs. If you got there once, surely you can get back there if you need to.

Even for those who can, how many Anglos do French for every year of high school? People are trying to get their qualifications for university. A lot of university programs require multiple prerequisites.

This one is pretty weak. It is very possible to take French and get into university. Not sure on the number of students who continue in French (but there were 3 or 4 grade 12 classes in my non-immersion high school in Kitchener, so that is a pretty significant percentage of a graduating class of 250 who put value on learning French). Regardless, the opportunity is clearly there. If one chooses to value other things more, it's a legitimate choice, but not a reason to begrudge those who did concentrate on learning the language.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As usual, not many tears in this debate for the 15-17% of Canadians who are unilingual francophones (it's probably even a bit higher if the standard is being good enough in English in order to work in that language) who have less than 5% of the country's federal public service jobs available to them.

Unless, of course, they make an effort to learn English.

They have a shitty situation too. That's why I think we should have gone with separate language work units like what was originally recommended. Would have helped both groups.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by phil235

This one is pretty weak. It is very possible to take French and get into university. Not sure on the number of students who continue in French (but there were 3 or 4 grade 12 classes in my non-immersion high school in Kitchener, so that is a pretty significant percentage of a graduating class of 250 who put value on learning French). Regardless, the opportunity is clearly there. If one chooses to value other things more, it's a legitimate choice, but not a reason to begrudge those who did concentrate on learning the language.

I took French up to Grade 9 (aced it with a grade of 90-something too) and I barely speak the language. Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I understand when I see written French, but spoken French goes completely over my head.

At my high school, French at the Core level wasn't offered past Grade 9; the upper-grade French courses were only available in the Immersion stream, so I had no choice but to stop taking French after Grade 9.

As for why I didn't take French Immersion in school; when my older sister was first registered for public school in 1993, French immersion was not available where we lived (which is odd, because that was in Embrun). The public school whose boundaries covered the area was Core-only from Grade 1 onwards (it did offer French-language kindergarten, which me, my brother, and my sister all took), and at the time the Prescott-Russell County Board of Education did not allow seeking French immersion as a valid reason to attend an out-of-boundary school, so the program was essentially only available to people who lived in certain communities. By the time my brother & I started school in 1997, this had changed, but my mother did not want to transfer my sister (as she didn't want to separate her from her friends) and my mother refused to have her kids in different schools, so there we go. (Ironically, my brother & I ended up attending a different high school than our sister because the school boundaries changed between when she started Grade 9 and when we started Grade 9).

[phil235]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I took French up to Grade 9 (aced it with a grade of 90-something too) and I barely speak the language. Sometimes I surprise myself with how much I understand when I see written French, but spoken French goes completely over my head.

At my high school, French at the Core level wasn't offered past Grade 9; the upper-grade French courses were only available in the Immersion stream, so I had no choice but to stop taking French after Grade 9.

As for why I didn't take French Immersion in school; when my older sister was first registered for public school in 1993, French immersion was not available where we lived (which is odd, because that was in Embrun). The public school whose boundaries covered the area was Core-only from Grade 1 onwards (it did offer French-language kindergarten, which me, my brother, and my sister all took), and at the time the Prescott-Russell County Board of Education did not allow seeking French immersion as a valid reason to attend an out-of-boundary school, so the program was essentially only available to people who lived in certain communities. By the time my brother & I started school in 1997, this had changed, but my mother did not want to transfer my sister (as she didn't want to separate her from her friends) and my mother refused to have her kids in different schools, so there we go. (Ironically, my brother & I ended up attending a different high school than our sister because the school boundaries changed between when she started Grade 9 and when we started Grade 9).

Fair point - it's not always the kid's fault that they didn't take the opportunity. I'm surprised that you didn't have an option of core French beyond Grade 9. Immersion schools must be different, because most non-immersion schools provide that option.

I think if you have grade 9 and did well, you would be surprised at your ability to get to a B level.

[Marshsparrow]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

... which is dumb because then you can't have an "English essential" manage a team of English essentials.

Not "dumb" - if you are at such level of managing a team you are also probably engaging with other teams (Human Resources, Procurement, IT, Communications, etc), other managers, senior management, other government partners, suppliers, etc. where you will need to speak English and/or French.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by phil235

Fair point - it's not always the kid's fault that they didn't take the opportunity. I'm surprised that you didn't have an option of core French beyond Grade 9. Immersion schools must be different, because most non-immersion schools provide that option.

I think if you have grade 9 and did well, you would be surprised at your ability to get to a B level.

At my high school, close to 80% of the students were in immersion, and it was a small school, with only about 300 students total. At smaller high schools, mandatory courses and a set of optional courses that are considered essential for certain career paths (like Calculus) are classified as "mandatory offers"--meaning the school will offer them no matter what--but any course that's not classified as a "mandatory offer" will only be offered if the number of students signing up for it exceeds a specific quota, at my school, set to 12 students. If fewer than 12 students enrolled, the course would have to be cancelled. French past Grade 9 was not classified as a mandatory offer, so it's placement on the course calendar was subject to demand. And when non-immersion kids are only 20% of the enrollment at a school that already only has 300 students to begin with... well, you do the math. It's tough to hit 12 in a specific grade.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You know what they say... when the heart's not in it...

It's probably not the case for everyone posting on here but there is definitely out there a latent resentment and refusal to recognize that French has equal official status to English at the federal level.

What's ironic is that often the same people who resent official bilingualism (in the public service or in other places, like post office or national park signs in Alberta) are the same ones who are virulently opposed to any form of greater autonomy for Quebec - a solution which might actually reduce a lot of the irritants they think they have to endure because of bilingualism.

I don't resent bilingualism. I resent the over classification of jobs as bilingual. Jobs that require no French or the use of French only on rare occasions should not be classified as bilingual or should be classified at lower levels of bilingualism or given specific training necessary for a specific situation or task.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Not sure what you are basing this statement on. In any event, my point was that people who even do just the mandatory courses are already at a level that opens up most government jobs. If you got there once, surely you can get back there if you need to.

If that was the case everyone would get their levels, which is clearly not happening.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If that was the case everyone would get their levels, which is clearly not happening.

One hears of individuals not getting their required level, but I've not seen anything to suggest a systemic problem. In fact, istm that testing was "dumbed down" about 10 years back to make it easier for Anglos to pass their French tests (at least that's what happened in the Department I was working at).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Not "dumb" - if you are at such level of managing a team you are also probably engaging with other teams (Human Resources, Procurement, IT, Communications, etc), other managers, senior management, other government partners, suppliers, etc. where you will need to speak English and/or French.

Yeah, just off the top of my head at some point if you're a manager in the federal government, you'll need to at least understand some French, to read proposed media responses, or the resumés of job applicants, etc., without the federal government having to pay to have this stuff translated just for you.

And of course, my sense is that truly "all English only" teams are probably quite rare across the government.

A team might be comprised of all anglophones (or all francophones) and function almost entirely in one language, but that doesn't mean that situation won't change with new hires, transfers, etc. And of course purposefully weeding out francophones so you don't have to speak French is a no-no. Even though it's probably done in some circles. Admittedly some francophone managers may favour francophone employees too.

[Marshsparrow]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And of course purposefully weeding out francophones so you don't have to speak French is a no-no. Even though it's probably done in some circles. Admittedly some francophone managers may favour francophone employees too.

As an anglophone hiring manager - I've hired 2x more francophones than anglophones because they have been the best qualified based on the established criteria (which has had many criteria and also included various language profiles).

Anglophones have an inferiority complex or think that working in the public service is a downgrade to private sector or use language qualifications as an excuse for being "stuck" or "shut-out" - rather than moaning the point - they should speak with their manager or union rep to see if their concern is justified.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, just off the top of my head at some point if you're a manager in the federal government, you'll need to at least understand some French, to read proposed media responses, or the resumés of job applicants, etc., without the federal government having to pay to have this stuff translated just for you.

And of course, my sense is that truly "all English only" teams are probably quite rare across the government.

A team might be comprised of all anglophones (or all francophones) and function almost entirely in one language, but that doesn't mean that situation won't change with new hires, transfers, etc. And of course purposefully weeding out francophones so you don't have to speak French is a no-no. Even though it's probably done in some circles. Admittedly some francophone managers may favour francophone employees too.

With every other ability you don't put something only done rarely or hypothetically as an essential qualification for the job. In some office jobs employees lift somewhat heavy objects (water cooler bottles, boxes of paper, those roller display things). A manager would not be allowed to put that as an essential qualification of the job and would be expected to manage around someone unable to change the water cooler.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

With every other ability you don't put something only done rarely or hypothetically as an essential qualification for the job. In some office jobs employees lift somewhat heavy objects (water cooler bottles, boxes of paper, those roller display things). A manager would not be allowed to put that as an essential qualification of the job and would be expected to manage around someone unable to change the water cooler.

The Government of Canada has as an objective and in fact a legal obligation that its employees have the right to work in the official language of their choice.

I don't think this can be placed in the same category as the occasional necessity to lift water cooler bottles...

In any event it's rather odd that offering free language training on work time is seen by so many people as a bad thing, when in actual fact your employer is clearly doing you a favour.

If you've ever discussed this with people from abroad, they're always shocked at how great a perk it would be to be able to be away from your regular job for as much as six months to learn French (or, hypothetically, another language) full time.

But here it's seen by many as a grossly unfair imposition.

Only in Canada, eh? Pity.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

At my high school, close to 80% of the students were in immersion, and it was a small school, with only about 300 students total. At smaller high schools, mandatory courses and a set of optional courses that are considered essential for certain career paths (like Calculus) are classified as "mandatory offers"--meaning the school will offer them no matter what--but any course that's not classified as a "mandatory offer" will only be offered if the number of students signing up for it exceeds a specific quota, at my school, set to 12 students. If fewer than 12 students enrolled, the course would have to be cancelled. French past Grade 9 was not classified as a mandatory offer, so it's placement on the course calendar was subject to demand. And when non-immersion kids are only 20% of the enrollment at a school that already only has 300 students to begin with... well, you do the math. It's tough to hit 12 in a specific grade.

Ah, makes sense. Funny that you actually have better French options in an all-English school in very English part of the province.

While I've certainly heard people complain about the quality of high school French in areas like Kitchener, in my experience the teaching was very good and prepared me well for that frightening day a decade later when I realized I would have to pick it back up again for a job in Ottawa.

[Djeffery]

My daughter is enrolled at the U of Ottawa starting this coming fall. She is staying at residence for the first year, like most out of town students. Second year, we have already started doing some preliminary research on where she should live. Not helped by my lack of knowledge of the city, and embarrassingly my only time there was only at the airport to connect on a flight in 1981 lol. One thing I found in some quick searches is that Gatineau seems to be a lot cheaper. Now, the obvious hope is for her to be friends with someone whose parents buy a condo as an investment right next to the university and she can rent there (and I know I won't be that parent lol). But suppose her and a couple friends find a place for rent across the river, how difficult is that to deal with as far as getting back and forth if they don't have a car? Do Ottawa and Gatineau/Hull transit systems connect easily? Any advice on where we should be looking, on either side?

[Dengler Avenue]

In all surprises, I may be able to draw from my friend's experience a bit. He was doing co-op in Ottawa but living in Gatineau (near Maisonneuve, near one of the bridges). Since he didn't know a word in French, it would seem that language shouldn't be an issue. In fact, close to where he lived, there was OC Transpo Routes 44 & 105. (This was back in 2018 though, so I wouldn't know how things have changed post the opening of Confederation Line.)

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

My daughter is enrolled at the U of Ottawa starting this coming fall. She is staying at residence for the first year, like most out of town students. Second year, we have already started doing some preliminary research on where she should live. Not helped by my lack of knowledge of the city, and embarrassingly my only time there was only at the airport to connect on a flight in 1981 lol. One thing I found in some quick searches is that Gatineau seems to be a lot cheaper. Now, the obvious hope is for her to be friends with someone whose parents buy a condo as an investment right next to the university and she can rent there (and I know I won't be that parent lol). But suppose her and a couple friends find a place for rent across the river, how difficult is that to deal with as far as getting back and forth if they don't have a car? Do Ottawa and Gatineau/Hull transit systems connect easily? Any advice on where we should be looking, on either side?

If she is going to live in Gatineau it really has to be right in downtown Hull because anywhere else will likely be too time consuming and difficult. Another nice thing about that location is that she could easily bike to Ottawa U across the Alexandra Bridge in less time than taking a bus most of the time during the warmer months.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

My daughter is enrolled at the U of Ottawa starting this coming fall. She is staying at residence for the first year, like most out of town students. Second year, we have already started doing some preliminary research on where she should live. Not helped by my lack of knowledge of the city, and embarrassingly my only time there was only at the airport to connect on a flight in 1981 lol. One thing I found in some quick searches is that Gatineau seems to be a lot cheaper. Now, the obvious hope is for her to be friends with someone whose parents buy a condo as an investment right next to the university and she can rent there (and I know I won't be that parent lol). But suppose her and a couple friends find a place for rent across the river, how difficult is that to deal with as far as getting back and forth if they don't have a car? Do Ottawa and Gatineau/Hull transit systems connect easily? Any advice on where we should be looking, on either side?

Ottawa and Gatineau Transit Systems connect fairly easily. Many buses from Gatineau end up in downtown Ottawa where they can connect to the Confederation Line (when it works) and local buses. Campus is not too long of a walk. The fare structures are integrated. The buses are not great, but usually functional, although she would want to check the actual local bus schedule before considering a place because frequency is limited in much of the city.

Without knowing anything about your daughter's lifestyle, friends, class schedule, interests, etc. it would be difficult to make a specific recommendation about whether the extra travel time and distance is worth the lower costs.