VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J81

Im sorry what? How does HFR shave 2 hours off the Ocean again? I dont understand what you’re saying here.

I said if routed that way, as in over HFR tracks from Quebec City to Montreal.

Originally Posted by J81

There doesn’t need to be 30 minute service between SJ and Halifax. Double daily would be adequate, maybe even too much at this point.

I said bi-hourly. Not semi-hourly. And if there's only enough traffic for two small trains daily, then there's no point. Buy coach buses and run them instead. People need to start understanding the attractiveness of frequency. Bi-hourly bus departures would be better than two trains a day.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This was/is an opportunity for the province to have created a commuter rail system in NS, but the city and province ignored it. The fact is, it isn't going to generate enough votes for them next election, and so it is ignored.

Commuter rail would only encourage urban sprawl. Do you really want to encourage people to live in giant, energy hogging mansions far from where they work? It is one thing to have commuter rail in big cities where there isn't enough land near the core for everyone to live nearby, but this isn't the case for small cities.

No!
HFR will only benefit the Corridor.

The problem elsewhere has to do with the speed and frequency of the route, not the cost. Right now, a drive from Toronto to Montreal vs a train from Toronto to Montreal are comparable. Do that between Toronto and Winnipeg and it starts to be silly. Not only that but, outside the Corridor, a daily train is unheard of.

Toronto to Winnipeg is a distance of over 2,000 km. Without massive subsidies, trains will be far more expensive than flying. Even if they invested in 160km/h trains (which would never happen) it would still take over 12 hours, compared to the 2:20 minutes it takes to fly. As I said in my previous post, the labour costs alone would make the train more expensive, let alone the massive cost to maintain the track.

The only new route that makes any sense would be Calgary-Red Dear-Edmonton, but without public support, it won't go anywhere. Investing in HFR will build public support. If only a small number of people want train service, a democratic government will never support them. If we get 2/3 of the Canadian population liking trains, they will encourage their expansion.

Double track was ripped up to save money. Freight trains are longer, and they may not fit in the siding too. That means the VIA must take the siding. This is all due to profit.

While not untrue, long distance trains will never by cost competitive with flying. Their primary purposes are to maintain confederation promises and serve communities that don't have roads.

It is as though VIA is trying to end service but not do it because of them. If only there was a government with regulatory powers that could do something.....

VIA has their hands tied. They only have so much money so are trying to get the biggest bang for their buck.

Some people do use it just for the journey, but others would rather it over flying. I am planning a honeymoon to Vancouver and would seriously consider the train, but with how late it can be, plus the high cost, it won't happen.

I'm trying to understand this. Do you want the government to pay for the vast majority of your honeymoon?

I know we subsidize air travel. Maybe that should stop, or we subsidize the same routes on a train too.

VIA is very heavily subsidized. The idea of HFR is to reduce the need for subsidies by making one route profitable. That profit can then be invested elsewhere.

A strategy of increasing VIA's requirement for annual subsidies by an order of magnitude will risk having a future, cost cutting government to throw the baby out with the bathwater and kill VIA Rail altogether.

[Dengler Avenue]

While not untrue, long distance trains will never by cost competitive with flying. Their primary purposes are to maintain confederation promises and serve communities that don't have roads.

I’m glad that someone remembers this.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by J81

Have you ever driven between Campbellton and Quebec City in the winter?

Countless times, and it's worth it for many reasons, 1) having a car when you're at your destination, 2) cheaper, 3) easier (you leave when you want, no need for planning/tickets), and 4) faster.

[Truenorth00]

Why are people fixated on trains? You know what would be great for the Maritimes? Coach buses running from Quebec City to Halifax, via different corridors letting folks connect on to HFR at Quebec city. This how transport works in other countries on routes where rail might not be viable.

I would rather have the Ocean become a regional Fredericton-Moncton-Halifax bi-hourly service connecting to half a dozen buses each on Saint John-Fredricton-Quebec City and Moncton-Miramichi-Campbellton-Rimouski-Quebec City.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why are people fixated on trains? You know what would be great for the Maritimes? Coach buses running from Quebec City to Halifax, via different corridors letting folks connect on to HFR at Quebec city. This how transport works in other countries on routes where rail might not be viable.

I would rather have the Ocean become a regional Fredericton-Moncton-Halifax bi-hourly service connecting to half a dozen buses each on Saint John-Fredricton-Quebec City and Moncton-Miramichi-Campbellton-Rimouski-Quebec City.

What about between SJ and Moncton and between Freddy and Miramichi? Provincial bus service?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Their primary purposes are to maintain confederation promises

Looks like another case of wording-that-aged-poorly in an ancient document (textbook example being 2nd Amendment's "eternal right for the People to bear as many flintlock muskets as they wish" vs a much more vague "arms").

If the promise was a transportation link, which it was, then in the 21st century air service serves that purpose perfectly well.

Good thing there wasn't a promise of "eternal horse-powered transportation service" between a city and another in those un-updatable texts, we'd be still stuck with that today... (I wouldn't have put it past them to phrase it like that!)

[Dengler Avenue]

Well P.E.I. joined the confederation under the premise that “there be steamboat service between the island and the mainland”. Look what we have today.

[lio45]

"The country promises there will always be a connection between the Island and Mainland that is at the very least equivalent to 19th century steamboat service with a frequency of X" would be a correct way to write it that would allow for a bridge or a tunnel, or even just for ferries/boats powered by more modern energy sources.

Canada was lucky we didn't have a powerful Steamboats Operators' Association because if we did, we'd still have empty steamboats going pointlessly back and forth under the Confederation Bridge at great taxpayer expense right now.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

What about between SJ and Moncton and between Freddy and Miramichi? Provincial bus service?

The network I proposed accommodates these trips with one transfer. Time the buses and trains to minimize transfer times and it could be nearly as fast as direct bus service.

The key here is that we need to focus on improving transportation and not get fixated on specific modes. I'd rather have VIA become a national transportation provider that has a shot at providing good services with little to no subsidy than be restricted to providing unprofitable rail services exclusively.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

What about between SJ and Moncton and between Freddy and Miramichi? Provincial bus service?

Here is a map of the current Maritime Bus service.


https://maritimebus.com/routes-bus-schedules/

[Dengler Avenue]

Woah I didn’t know this exists. Thanks for the link. Seriously ever since I had a car, I’ve been out of touch with buses.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Woah I didn’t know this exists. Thanks for the link. Seriously ever since I had a car, I’ve been out of touch with buses.

Good for you. I had 3 intercity buses engines caught on fire in the last 5 years. I loathe loathe loathe buses. A bus doesn't compare to a train in any positive way. The only bus I didn't hate harshly was between Edmonton and Calgary, they had a first class version.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Good for you. I had 3 intercity buses engines caught on fire in the last 5 years. I loathe loathe loathe buses. A bus doesn't compare to a train in any positive way. The only bus I didn't hate harshly was between Edmonton and Calgary, they had a first class version.

There's absolutely no reason that every major bus service in the country can't be like what they have in Alberta. And I would love to see VIA jump into the game and do just that. Maybe even outright buy out existing operators.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Here is a map of the current Maritime Bus service.


https://maritimebus.com/routes-bus-schedules/

One trip a day ain't exactly anything to write home about.

[Hali87]

I wonder if there would be a way to leverage either the NS-NB or NS-Maine ferries to route Montreal-bound traffic from NS and Southern NB through Maine? I suppose if it were that simple we'd probably have that by now.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Well P.E.I. joined the confederation under the premise that “there be steamboat service between the island and the mainland”. Look what we have today.

What I remember from my high school history courses is that PEI was promised a fixed link and that the construction of the Confederation Bridge was the fulfillment of that promise, well over a century later.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

One trip a day ain't exactly anything to write home about.

It's better than literally nothing, which was the main alternative.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is insanity. Aviation is a moneymaker for governments in Canada. Unlike elsewhere. Go look at the taxes on your average ticket.

Even in Europe it's not very common to see 2000 km train rides. People fly that. Or if it's families on vacation, they drive.

A flight one way Vancouver-Toronto can be as low as $400. You can get that for a coach seat on Via, but if you are going to do it, you likely get a sleeper of some sort, which is closer to $2000. Taxes are the same rate, but higher on the train ticket due to the higher cost.

So, actually, if you removed all subsides from air, then the ticket would go up, and then the government would get more taxes.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Commuter rail would only encourage urban sprawl. Do you really want to encourage people to live in giant, energy hogging mansions far from where they work? It is one thing to have commuter rail in big cities where there isn't enough land near the core for everyone to live nearby, but this isn't the case for small cities.

Halifax has sprawled out like you wouldn't believe. At least with Commuter Rail, the city could use those as town centres building density up in those areas.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Toronto to Winnipeg is a distance of over 2,000 km. Without massive subsidies, trains will be far more expensive than flying. Even if they invested in 160km/h trains (which would never happen) it would still take over 12 hours, compared to the 2:20 minutes it takes to fly. As I said in my previous post, the labour costs alone would make the train more expensive, let alone the massive cost to maintain the track.

The only new route that makes any sense would be Calgary-Red Dear-Edmonton, but without public support, it won't go anywhere. Investing in HFR will build public support. If only a small number of people want train service, a democratic government will never support them. If we get 2/3 of the Canadian population liking trains, they will encourage their expansion.

While not untrue, long distance trains will never by cost competitive with flying. Their primary purposes are to maintain confederation promises and serve communities that don't have roads.

VIA has their hands tied. They only have so much money so are trying to get the biggest bang for their buck.

VIA is very heavily subsidized. The idea of HFR is to reduce the need for subsidies by making one route profitable. That profit can then be invested elsewhere.

A strategy of increasing VIA's requirement for annual subsidies by an order of magnitude will risk having a future, cost cutting government to throw the baby out with the bathwater and kill VIA Rail altogether.

A natural gas pipeline has caused a shutdown of rail traffic in eastern Canada. I don't doubt there will be challenges with the route they currently want to put the HFR down.

The challenge we face now is that anything new will face challenges and take longer to get approved.

Mind you, if we demanded the mainlines be double tracked, this would solve the HFR issue. For the non mainline routes, having enough passing sidings to allow the freight to be passed by Via would even make those routes better.

If I had to choose between frequency and on time, I would always choose on time performance. I don't care the length, but being hours late is bad. Regularly being hours late is really bad.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I'm trying to understand this. Do you want the government to pay for the vast majority of your honeymoon?

Well, with how they subsidize the airlines, they are. I'll bet that they are covering much more than most of us want to admit.

The cost is not the biggest issue, the fact that it take as long as it does with no guarantee of arriving on time. I would pay the additional cost if I knew they will arrive on time.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by J81

Whats your alternative then?

Intercity trains where demand justifies it, buses where it doesn't. And a competitive airline industry.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

We have been seeing a shift from rail to flying over the last 40 years. Part of the reason is the subsidy that the government gives to the airlines to service Canada. If that wasn't the case, we might be seeing a TGV style service between Vancouver and Toronto taking about a day.

The fact you've been asked multiple times to explain what subsidies you are talking about indicates that you don't actually have an answer. You are making this up. Please prove us wrong.