VIA Rail

[J81]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

These wouldn't be the locomotives that were said to not be able to go in reverse at speed then, I take it

They are those locomotives and by the time this happens they will have mostly had their traction motors replaced to allow them to travel up to 95mph in either direction.

[J81]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Thanks for the good read.

IMO, I'm not particularity nostalgic for keeping the overnight services and realistically it seems doomed to go away. Rightly, a big investment in equipment is needed and it seems to me that spending that money on sleeper cars would be a waste, when the money could be spent on vehicles that serve normal intercity functions. It would be more flexible.

Is there any real reason (other than politics and money) that the government couldn't just buy more of the new vehicles they are buying for the corridor, and deploy them on intercity services in the east? Of all the ways the government could spend money, adding trains to a contract should be about as easy a decision as it gets?

If you dont run the Ocean as an overnight service than it makes it impossible for anyone west of montreal to get to the east coast. The times of train 70, 64 and 14 are the way they are and have always been to facilitate connections to the Ocean. A significant portion of the Oceans business comes from west of Montreal. Especially in the summer.

If you wanted to go from Toronto to Halifax on the train would you do it if you had to connect 3 times and spend a night in a hotel? I wouldnt.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by J81

If you dont run the Ocean as an overnight service than it makes it impossible for anyone west of montreal to get to the east coast. The times of train 70, 64 and 14 are the way they are and have always been to facilitate connections to the Ocean. A significant portion of the Oceans business comes from west of Montreal. Especially in the summer.

If you wanted to go from Toronto to Halifax on the train would you do it if you had to connect 3 times and spend a night in a hotel? I wouldnt.

I wouldn't take the train regardless, it would take too long. I would fly.

It seems to me the overnight services are inevitably doomed, unless equipment is replaced. And then the question has to be asked, does spending money on replacing sleeper cars give a greater benefit than replacing regular trains? My gut would be that no, it will not.

[lio45]

If I were going to Halifax, I wouldn't even bother to look at the prices of train tickets, I'd drive. (Tells you what you need to know about how uncompetitive passenger train service is in this country.)

[Djeffery]

I think many of the people taking the Ocean (and the Canadian) are doing it for the journey, not simply as a mode of transportation. I did it once as a kid, I would never do it again. My dad did it back in whatever year it was (2008 I think) where VIA let veterans travel free for the summer. He lived in Halifax then so he brought his grand daughter (my niece) for a few weeks, since she was young enough that she also travelled cheap or maybe even free. Of course, the deal was that the free and cheap seats were coach. Took something like 36 hours each way to get to London, with connections in Montreal and Toronto. He said it was pretty miserable by the end of it, as I imagine it would be in coach that long but he said it was a bucket list item. Him and his wife still talk about taking the Canadian, but only one way, and in a sleeper, and flying the other direction.

Another friend of mine just did it last year after he retired. He booked it in coach, and the first thing he did when he got off the train in Halifax was go change his reservation to a sleeper for the trip home a couple weeks later lol.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I think many of the people taking the Ocean (and the Canadian) are doing it for the journey, not simply as a mode of transportation. I did it once as a kid, I would never do it again. My dad did it back in whatever year it was (2008 I think) where VIA let veterans travel free for the summer. He lived in Halifax then so he brought his grand daughter (my niece) for a few weeks, since she was young enough that she also travelled cheap or maybe even free. Of course, the deal was that the free and cheap seats were coach. Took something like 36 hours each way to get to London, with connections in Montreal and Toronto. He said it was pretty miserable by the end of it, as I imagine it would be in coach that long but he said it was a bucket list item. Him and his wife still talk about taking the Canadian, but only one way, and in a sleeper, and flying the other direction.

Another friend of mine just did it last year after he retired. He booked it in coach, and the first thing he did when he got off the train in Halifax was go change his reservation to a sleeper for the trip home a couple weeks later lol.

I love travelling by train. I did The Canadian 6 times and even extended it to Halifax a couple of times. (but yeah coach is a no-no) It helps that I get nearly 20000 points per year.

Anyways, hopefully the trains will start, most of my clothes are at my house and I usually pack only for a week. I might have to take a cab Friday if it's not resolves. Doesn't anyone know if your Credit Card Travel Insurance would cover a situation like that? I asked and they were getting back to me.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by esquire

There is no national passenger rail network anymore. Just a bunch of crown corporation owned railway equipment sitting in yards at the moment.

But kidding aside, it's clear that the parts of the network outside of the corridor are fading fast. The western transcons are down to 2x a week for most of the year and what's left is subject to constant extreme delays due to heavy CN traffic. The eastern transcons have also had frequency reduced, and they're faced with rotting equipment and logistical challenges like the elimination of the wye in Halifax. All of these things are taking a toll... I doubt that there will be much if anything left of the non-corridor VIA network in a decade.

The reality is that the entire rail network in Canada is subject to profitability. This is why the blockade has been so hard on both CN and CP. They have pulled up the tracks that they felt were not profitable. Part of me thinks that the government should not remove those blockades if CN and CP want to abandon lines that have a use.

What we really need is a government that actually wants to spend money on VIA. Put money in to replace missing links. Put money in for more routes. Put money in to add to the fleet. The issues with the Ocean highlight the many issues plaguing the entire network.

Originally Posted by someone123

The Ocean operates at a loss of millions of dollars per year. Imagine if that money had been spent on improving the physical railway infrastructure instead, and we let private operators figure out which routes are or aren't profitable.

There are dozens of little improvements that could be made bit by bit to the rail links around the central parts of the Maritimes (e.g. build sidings or shorten the route here or there), and there's plenty of transportation demand. It's not working because the infrastructure is mismanaged, little capital investment is happening, and VIA is bound by political constraints that force it to run services that don't fit usefully into the national transportation network.

The railway network should probably have been maintained provincially just like the highway system. If the provincial governments of NS and NB cared about it, it would be completely reasonable and realistic for them to maintain a single decent rail corridor running for a few hundred kms to serve 1 million people or so.

This was/is an opportunity for the province to have created a commuter rail system in NS, but the city and province ignored it. The fact is, it isn't going to generate enough votes for them next election, and so it is ignored.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Canadians aren't willing to fund these services. Simple as that. Our only hope is HFR being profitable enough to allow a reduction of subsidies to new services.

No!
HFR will only benefit the Corridor.

The problem elsewhere has to do with the speed and frequency of the route, not the cost. Right now, a drive from Toronto to Montreal vs a train from Toronto to Montreal are comparable. Do that between Toronto and Winnipeg and it starts to be silly. Not only that but, outside the Corridor, a daily train is unheard of.

Double track was ripped up to save money. Freight trains are longer, and they may not fit in the siding too. That means the VIA must take the siding. This is all due to profit.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This excellent link describes the three major challenges facing the VIA Ocean.

https://www.transportaction.ca/regions/atlantic/ocean-faces-triple-jeopardy/

The loss of the loop at Halterm is only one of the issues at hand. The Renaissance fleet has to be retired by 2022 at the latest, and there is no replacement stock. The CN rail line on the Tantramar Marsh is also at risk of being overtopped by major tidal events. If this ever happened, it would imperil freight and passenger service to NS, as well as breaching the TCH. Right now, the CNR embankment is doing double duty as a dyke during flooding events, a task it was not designed for.

Meanwhile the feds and the governments of NB & NS fiddle while Rome burns......

It is as though VIA is trying to end service but not do it because of them. If only there was a government with regulatory powers that could do something.....

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I think many of the people taking the Ocean (and the Canadian) are doing it for the journey, not simply as a mode of transportation. I did it once as a kid, I would never do it again. My dad did it back in whatever year it was (2008 I think) where VIA let veterans travel free for the summer. He lived in Halifax then so he brought his grand daughter (my niece) for a few weeks, since she was young enough that she also travelled cheap or maybe even free. Of course, the deal was that the free and cheap seats were coach. Took something like 36 hours each way to get to London, with connections in Montreal and Toronto. He said it was pretty miserable by the end of it, as I imagine it would be in coach that long but he said it was a bucket list item. Him and his wife still talk about taking the Canadian, but only one way, and in a sleeper, and flying the other direction.

Another friend of mine just did it last year after he retired. He booked it in coach, and the first thing he did when he got off the train in Halifax was go change his reservation to a sleeper for the trip home a couple weeks later lol.

Some people do use it just for the journey, but others would rather it over flying. I am planning a honeymoon to Vancouver and would seriously consider the train, but with how late it can be, plus the high cost, it won't happen.

I know we subsidize air travel. Maybe that should stop, or we subsidize the same routes on a train too.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I know we subsidize air travel. Maybe that should stop, or we subsidize the same routes on a train too.

In what ways? We don't properly charge carbon tax on jet fuel, AFAIK, but how large do you believe the subsidy to be? The largest subsidy the airlines get is the lack of competition, but that results in higher prices. If that government policy was removed, air travel would become even cheaper.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by milomilo

In what ways? We don't properly charge carbon tax on jet fuel, AFAIK, but how large do you believe the subsidy to be? The largest subsidy the airlines get is the lack of competition, but that results in higher prices. If that government policy was removed, air travel would become even cheaper.

Much higher gas taxes would help train become a bit more competitive - though, in the specific example discussed, as chance would have it, no one in Canada has the power to do this to help convince me to ever take the Ocean as the optimal Montreal-Halifax drive would obviously be done on cheaper American gas.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

In what ways? We don't properly charge carbon tax on jet fuel, AFAIK, but how large do you believe the subsidy to be? The largest subsidy the airlines get is the lack of competition, but that results in higher prices. If that government policy was removed, air travel would become even cheaper.

We have been seeing a shift from rail to flying over the last 40 years. Part of the reason is the subsidy that the government gives to the airlines to service Canada. If that wasn't the case, we might be seeing a TGV style service between Vancouver and Toronto taking about a day.

[J81]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I wouldn't take the train regardless, it would take too long. I would fly.

It seems to me the overnight services are inevitably doomed, unless equipment is replaced. And then the question has to be asked, does spending money on replacing sleeper cars give a greater benefit than replacing regular trains? My gut would be that no, it will not.

But thats just you. And others on this forum admittedly. But reality is there are people that do it regularly including myself.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lio45

Much higher gas taxes would help train become a bit more competitive - though, in the specific example discussed, as chance would have it, no one in Canada has the power to do this to help convince me to ever take the Ocean as the optimal Montreal-Halifax drive would obviously be done on cheaper American gas.

I have said it before, but one of the big reasons why long distance trains will never be cost competitive to flying is the cost of labour. The number of employees per passenger is about the same (if not more) on a train than on an airplane. To fly from Montreal to Halifax takes 1.5 (2 hours from Toronto). Even if you consider 1.5 hours of extra time that you need to pay the employees for time spent before and after the flight, that is only 3 hours of labour per employee. The train OTOH takes 21 hours to cover the 840 miles from Montreal to Halifax. That means the labour costs per passenger are at least 7 times as high. Now the train is very slow, but it would be extremely difficult to get it to even 12 hours, which would still be 4 times as long as flying.

This is only the labour costs. There are also track maintenance costs which are a whole other story.

There are reasons to run long distance trains, but not as a means of affordable, long distance travel.

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

We have been seeing a shift from rail to flying over the last 40 years. Part of the reason is the subsidy that the government gives to the airlines to service Canada. If that wasn't the case, we might be seeing a TGV style service between Vancouver and Toronto taking about a day.

What subsidy? Explain please!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

We have been seeing a shift from rail to flying over the last 40 years. Part of the reason is the subsidy that the government gives to the airlines to service Canada. If that wasn't the case, we might be seeing a TGV style service between Vancouver and Toronto taking about a day.

This is insanity. Aviation is a moneymaker for governments in Canada. Unlike elsewhere. Go look at the taxes on your average ticket.

Even in Europe it's not very common to see 2000 km train rides. People fly that. Or if it's families on vacation, they drive.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by J81

But thats just you. And others on this forum admittedly. But reality is there are people that do it regularly including myself.

"Many" as in an absolute value, or in any way large relative to the total number of journeys? What's important is providing affordable, fast, options for the journey, and I'm not convinced via rail sleepers are the best value way of doing that.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I think many of the people taking the Ocean (and the Canadian) are doing it for the journey, not simply as a mode of transportation. I did it once as a kid, I would never do it again. My dad did it back in whatever year it was (2008 I think) where VIA let veterans travel free for the summer. He lived in Halifax then so he brought his grand daughter (my niece) for a few weeks, since she was young enough that she also travelled cheap or maybe even free. Of course, the deal was that the free and cheap seats were coach. Took something like 36 hours each way to get to London, with connections in Montreal and Toronto. He said it was pretty miserable by the end of it, as I imagine it would be in coach that long but he said it was a bucket list item. Him and his wife still talk about taking the Canadian, but only one way, and in a sleeper, and flying the other direction.

Another friend of mine just did it last year after he retired. He booked it in coach, and the first thing he did when he got off the train in Halifax was go change his reservation to a sleeper for the trip home a couple weeks later lol.

Its amusing to me how many people on this forum view the ocean as a tourist train. Yes there are people who do use it as such but less than half the people who get on in Montreal go all the way to Moncton or Halifax. It doesnt compete against air travel it competes with the car. Have you ever driven between Campbellton and Quebec City in the winter? I can be miserable. The 20 is closed regularly. The tracks are never closed.... well until last week lol but thats a whole other can of worms. The point is its not a tourist service. Its a transportation service for the people living in the many small towns and cities along the Oceans route. Theres a reason it has survived as long as it has despite the government trying to kill it repeatedly.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It seems to me the overnight services are inevitably doomed, unless equipment is replaced. And then the question has to be asked, does spending money on replacing sleeper cars give a greater benefit than replacing regular trains? My gut would be that no, it will not.

Agreed. HFR will help cut 2 hrs off The Ocean if routed that way. But the best case they get stuck with current levels of service unless something changes. Long term, VIA needs to work with NB and NS to fund something like HFR for Fredericton/Saint John - Moncton - Halifax. Let them run bi-hourly DMUs. Also provides a corridor from Moncton for The Ocean.

People need to stop blaming VIA and asking the provinces why they aren't stepping up with capital funding at least.

[J81]

Originally Posted by milomilo

"Many" as in an absolute value, or in any way large relative to the total number of journeys? What's important is providing affordable, fast, options for the journey, and I'm not convinced via rail sleepers are the best value way of doing that.

Whats your alternative then?

[J81]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Agreed. HFR will help cut 2 hrs off The Ocean if routed that way. But the best case they get stuck with current levels of service unless something changes. Long term, VIA needs to work with NB and NS to fund something like HFR for Fredericton/Saint John - Moncton - Halifax. Let them run bi-hourly DMUs. Also provides a corridor from Moncton for The Ocean.

People need to stop blaming VIA and asking the provinces why they aren't stepping up with capital funding at least.

Im sorry what? How does HFR shave 2 hours off the Ocean again? I dont understand what you’re saying here.

There doesn’t need to be 30 minute service between SJ and Halifax. Double daily would be adequate, maybe even too much at this point.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J81

Whats your alternative then?

Status quo. Unless someone ponies up.

HFR has a business case because VIA is already filling 10 trains a day and there are 200 flights per day between the TOM metros. That's before counting buses, driving and induced demand caused by faster and cheaper travel. HFR is also connecting three metros with a combined population of over 10 million and two regional rail networks that will be electrified in due course.

There's no such case for most of the rest of the country. So only minimal levels of service and investment is justified. So if anyone wants better they have to pony up. No different than suburbs wanting grade separated subways. The provinces need to step up to help VIA. Some actual cash on their part will bring the feds to the table.