YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[thenoflyzone]

^A huge paragraph..... with garbage filler material....

Tweedle dick at his best.....lol

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Especially at Bangalore. The route makes sense on an O&D level. Alaska will provide the onward feed. Smart strategy by AA, but lets face it, no one was expecting this. Some say it's retaliation for DL building up MIA and their recent tie-up with LATAM in South America.



Enjoy it while you can. Some believe the benefits of their rewards program will weaken with them joining OneWorld.

https://onemileatatime.com/alaska-airlines-oneworld/

I was planning on building my AK stash of miles this year and using them next year, but I may have to move up that plan slightly. Already spent a wad of Avios on some First-class tickets from Japan at the end of the year, though.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Although not YVR related as I realise some love to bring SEA up often but it will be fun watching AA and DL duke it out.
Looks like Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum have chimed in again.
Somebody above alluded to the congestion that SEA is facing:
Their number 1 current huge project is their IAF (Intl Arrivals Facility) - the emphasis here is the “Arrivals” aspect. The facility itself is really an enhanced intl processing facility. A much needed improvement there.
Unfortunately this “expansion” is not delivering any gate capacity. At the moment there are no immediate plans for gate expansion. There is very little room to move for any sort of significant expansion without a serious overhaul of the existing facility or expropriation. In any event there really isn’t a lot of capacity left for either carrier to build up a large intl hub network. Just look at SEA’s Projects page and it’s all about modernisation and enhancements not true “expansions.”
AA’s benefit here is that they have an instant domestic network at their disposal thanks to AS’s huge hub in SEA. DL had to build from scratch. Case in point - DL’s intl network has not gained any additional frequencies in the last couple of years (HKG out KIX in). Also note, other carriers aren’t just standing by... even Star Alliance carriers such as SQ and LH are starting new services. Seattle is a huge market but how big is the pie and how much can each carrier get from that pie?
The discussion about taxiway congestion is also significant. SEA’s three runway layout means that if you land on 34L/16R you have to cross not one but two other active runways. This can create a huge mess when trying to get arriving planes into the gate areas which are all located on the extreme East of the airfield. This is even highlighted in the SEA airport projects page... waiting times for gate space and taxiing congestion. Fun to watch on FR24 as flights arriving get "trapped" between the runways as too many flights are taking off. ATC cannot hold departures long enough to get the arriving planes into the gate areas otherwise the departing flights then get backed up and clog the gate area aprons.
Even LAX which has a 4 runway system at most arriving planes only have to cross one other active runway. Even then arriving flights get stacked up and down the area between the runways then all cross at once in between departing flights.. great fun to watch from the LAX Hilton lounge.
This may also be a step in the direction of AA acquiring AS. There are some who will refuse to believe this could happen but... there have been WAY bigger mergers in the history of US aviation! And once you’re in the same alliance do you need two carriers in the same country? UA/CO comes to mind?

So meanwhile YVR is expanding with additional gates and facilities... Cleary YVR’s is in for a downturn and what’s happening is no reflection on Vancouver as the global events that are affecting worldwide travel is having and will have a significant impact at YVR.

This week I did a trip down to Dallas. Went down on WS connecting to Delta at LAX. Back was Alaska connecting in SEA.

LAX is a mess. The gate wait areas are to small for the number of passengers typically carried on the larger higher density aircraft they are using today. Given the strong "partnership" between Delta and WestJet you would expect an easy transfer but no it requires an airside bus transfer. At least the Delta business lounge is nice.

SEA is a mess. Same gate wait area crowing issues as LAX. Arriving flight stuck between the runways. However if was not stuck it could not get to its gate due to congestion. The SEA-YVR (E75) flight was late, due to overcrowding the in coming flight had to be off-loaded at a different gate and towed over to our gate. A number of passangers were connecting in Vancouver to Hong Kong on the midnight departure, they were called up and rerouted given the delayed departure.

From a customer experience perspective YVR is in a much better position.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

^A huge paragraph..... with garbage filler material....

Tweedle dick at his best.....lol

What a well thought out and insightful post.

Thank you for your continued valuable contribution to this forum...

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by casper

This week I did a trip down to Dallas. Went down on WS connecting to Delta at LAX. Back was Alaska connecting in SEA.

LAX is a mess. The gate wait areas are to small for the number of passengers typically carried on the larger higher density aircraft they are using today. Given the strong "partnership" between Delta and WestJet you would expect an easy transfer but no it requires an airside bus transfer. At least the Delta business lounge is nice.

SEA is a mess. Same gate wait area crowing issues as LAX. Arriving flight stuck between the runways. However if was not stuck it could not get to its gate due to congestion. The SEA-YVR (E75) flight was late, due to overcrowding the in coming flight had to be off-loaded at a different gate and towed over to our gate. A number of passangers were connecting in Vancouver to Hong Kong on the midnight departure, they were called up and rerouted given the delayed departure.

From a customer experience perspective YVR is in a much better position.

Yes, and the renovation they did at that termnal made it even worse. Big clunky pieces of furniture blocking the way at gates that were already too small.

In other news UA has said their 737Maxs' will remain off the schedule through the summer.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by casper

SEA is a mess. Same gate wait area crowing issues as LAX. Arriving flight stuck between the runways. However if was not stuck it could not get to its gate due to congestion. The SEA-YVR (E75) flight was late, due to overcrowding the in coming flight had to be off-loaded at a different gate and towed over to our gate. A number of passangers were connecting in Vancouver to Hong Kong on the midnight departure, they were called up and rerouted given the delayed departure.

^ This. And that’s what I mean. It’s all good to talk about building a hub but there is minimal room to grow anything significantly. There is just nowhere to grow without significant overhauls or expropriation. There is talk about possible terminal expansion but not until 2030 at the earliest. So in the next 10 years how will they be able to grow significant international operations for a hub. This will also require the relocation of cargo facilities. But where do they go? Also, increasing the volume of flights will only cause further congestion to their 3 parallel runway system. There is already so much congestion and the lineups go back to the terminal aprons. There is also very little room to move on the aprons between the concourses. A pretty tough layout to grow anything significant. A bit of a conundrum.
And to reiterate YVR had 8 million more intl pax than SEA in 2019... despite all their additions.
And despite all the competition YVR is facing a decent month of growth across all sectors in December despite some forum members who were probably hoping for a decline. Obviously 2020 will be challenging for many airports but the factors causing this are out of anybody’s control.

[s211]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

What a well thought out and insightful post.

Thank you for your continued valuable contribution to this forum...

Yeah, it was an easy and simple choice for me to add him to my ignore list.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Jonnie Aussy

www.vancouversun.ca/YVR closing in 2021/

The Vancouver Airport Authority announced today that it will be shutting down Vancouver International Airport (YVR) in 2021...

Well, I think we should at least have high speed rail to Seattle before they close YVR. Sheesh!

[libtard]

Lol Johnny Aussie has an alias. That’s what you get for being annoying

[trofirhen]

In trying to be positive about all this, what I seem to gather from the above posts is that SEA-TAC has a crowded terminal. YVR is better, with bigger gates, users say.
As such, does that have any impact on new routes opening up from either airport. Seattle just got Bangalore, which is great. But are Seattle's facilities stifling new routes?
And are YVR's seemingly more spacious facilities any prognosticator that Vancouver will see new routes? In any event, I think YVR - LIM, or YVR - GRU would break the meniscus here.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by s211

Yeah, it was an easy and simple choice for me to add him to my ignore list.

It took you that long!? Only have to read the drivel when someone quotes him.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Seattle just got Bangalore, which is great. But are Seattle's facilities stifling new routes?

You tell me....

CX, SQ and JL in 2019. AC to YUL, LH to MUC, DE to MUC, PR to MNL and now AA to LHR/BLR in 2020/2021. (mind you UA wants to block PR to MNL, so we'll see if it happens)

Meanwhile, no new airlines at YVR in 2019, and 2020 will see TK/IST and Sun Country.

Yes, as you can see, airport constraints and the dreaded 2 runway crossing is keeping airlines away from SEA. LOL

Meanwhile, AA and UA have canceled China and HK service until the end of April. They are very likely to extend into the summer as well. Let's see what AC does.

YVR, with all that extra capacity, was stagnant in 2019, and will see a huge decline in pax numbers in 2020. So obviously, as tweedle dick said, airport constraints are a huge deterent/factor in airlines deciding where to fly.

[Denscity]

...and after that Vancouver will still have way more international passengers than Seattle.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Denscity

...and after that Vancouver will still have way more international passengers than Seattle.

Never said the contrary.

[SpongeG]

I saw on the news it could take 18 months to get a vaccine for the Coronavirus. If it keeps spreading it could extend the cancelled flights to China globally?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

You tell me....

CX, SQ and JL in 2019. AC to YUL, LH to MUC, DE to MUC, PR to MNL and now AA to LHR/BLR in 2020/2021. (mind you UA wants to block PR to MNL, so we'll see if it happens)
^^ - I presume here that you are referring to Seattle.^^
Meanwhile, no new airlines at YVR in 2019, and 2020 will see TK/IST and Sun Country.
Yes! TK will be a great addition, and MPLS-based Sun Country has a great US network. I should welcome them.. YVR is yet the only Canadian destination.

Yes, as you can see, airport constraints and the dreaded 2 runway crossing is keeping airlines away from SEA. LOL
^^Would you elaborate on the "dreaded 2 runway crossing" please. SEA has 3 runways, I believe. Correct me if I am wrong.^^

Meanwhile, AA and UA have canceled China and HK service until the end of April. They are very likely to extend into the summer as well. Let's see what AC does.
^^So, out of Seattle China and HK service cut by the principal US airlines, and will AC do the same out of YVR?

YVR, with all that extra capacity, was stagnant in 2019, and will see a huge decline in pax numbers in 2020. So obviously, as tweedle dick said, airport constraints are a huge deterent/factor in airlines deciding where to fly.

Thank you for this answer. May I ask that we refer to the letter above.
^^Thank you for the clarification on airport termiunal constraints. That tells me quite a bit. However, using such crude familiarities when addressing a SSP senior member is distasteful.
I think it not inappropriate to request polite behaviour on the forum. I have learned this on my own, so I think I speak from experience and for others. Thank you for your understanding.

[casper]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

You tell me....

CX, SQ and JL in 2019. AC to YUL, LH to MUC, DE to MUC, PR to MNL and now AA to LHR/BLR in 2020/2021. (mind you UA wants to block PR to MNL, so we'll see if it happens)

Meanwhile, no new airlines at YVR in 2019, and 2020 will see TK/IST and Sun Country.

Yes, as you can see, airport constraints and the dreaded 2 runway crossing is keeping airlines away from SEA. LOL

Meanwhile, AA and UA have canceled China and HK service until the end of April. They are very likely to extend into the summer as well. Let's see what AC does.

YVR, with all that extra capacity, was stagnant in 2019, and will see a huge decline in pax numbers in 2020. So obviously, as tweedle dick said, airport constraints are a huge deterent/factor in airlines deciding where to fly.

Not certain what the argument is your trying to make here. The new "SEA" flights you listed as mostly flights already serviced by YVR.

Lets take a look at the SEA additions you identified in more detailed:
- Lufthansa now adding Munich in Seattle to augment its YVR flight to Munich.
- SQ - they pulled out after Sept 11th. They mostly carried passengers to South Korea. A route served daily by two other airlines from YVR.
- JL - An airline that has served Vancouver for decades. Yes a few years ago they dropped Mexico City, however having a Japanese airline operate a tag on is a little weird these days. We are well served by both JL and AC to Narita and ANA to more trendy Tokyo airport.
- DE - Who is going to get overly worked about a discount leisure airline. They have served both SEA and YVR for years.
- PR - They have served Vancouver for years.
- AA - London. If you want to be oneworld, BA bring the A380 into Vancovuer during the summer and a smaller aircraft (e.g. 747) during the winter. Add on to that AC, WestJet and Transat and that city is well served.
- AA to India - AC started to that a few years ago.

I use to be based out of YYJ and would frequently go through US customs in SEA. Not a good experience. The airport is struggling to manage the volumes it has now. The rest of the airport is also struggling to manage.

Next time your in the long-term parking lot in YVR, look around you will see a good percentage of Washington State plates in the parking lot. That is a pretty good indication of what is going on. Next time you come off the the SEA-YVR flight watch how many of your fellow passengers follow the line for international connections. That also says a lot.

I am a big proponent of the concept of Cascadia and the principle that anything that makes part of the economic corridor more business friendly is a positive for the rest of the corridor. So anything that improves Seattle and Portland is a positive for Vancouver. However SEATAC will unfortunately be a limiting factor. YVR will have to out perform to compensate.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by casper

Not certain what the argument is your trying to make here. The new "SEA" flights you listed as mostly flights already serviced by YVR.

Lets take a look at the SEA additions you identified in more detailed:
- Lufthansa now adding Munich in Seattle to augment its YVR flight to Munich.
- SQ - they pulled out after Sept 11th. They mostly carried passengers to South Korea. A route served daily by two other airlines from YVR.
- JL - An airline that has served Vancouver for decades. Yes a few years ago they dropped Mexico City, however having a Japanese airline operate a tag on is a little weird these days. We are well served by both JL and AC to Narita and ANA to more trendy Tokyo airport.
- DE - Who is going to get overly worked about a discount leisure airline. They have served both SEA and YVR for years.
- PR - They have served Vancouver for years.
- AA - London. If you want to be oneworld, BA bring the A380 into Vancovuer during the summer and a smaller aircraft (e.g. 747) during the winter. Add on to that AC, WestJet and Transat and that city is well served.
- AA to India - AC started to that a few years ago.

I use to be based out of YYJ and would frequently go through US customs in SEA. Not a good experience. The airport is struggling to manage the volumes it has now. The rest of the airport is also struggling to manage.

Next time your in the long-term parking lot in YVR, look around you will see a good percentage of Washington State plates in the parking lot. That is a pretty good indication of what is going on. Next time you come off the the SEA-YVR flight watch how many of your fellow passengers follow the line for international connections. That also says a lot.

I am a big proponent of the concept of Cascadia and the principle that anything that makes part of the economic corridor more business friendly is a positive for the rest of the corridor. So anything that improves Seattle and Portland is a positive for Vancouver. However SEATAC will unfortunately be a limiting factor.
YVR will have to out perform to compensate.

Yes. Thank you, sir. That is absolute, as Glen Korström implied in the recent BIV article on Seattle. A game-changer would be a flight to South America like YVR-GRU or YVR-LIMA.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by casper

I use to be based out of YYJ and would frequently go through US customs in SEA. Not a good experience. The airport is struggling to manage the volumes it has now. The rest of the airport is also struggling to manage.

Next time your in the long-term parking lot in YVR, look around you will see a good percentage of Washington State plates in the parking lot. That is a pretty good indication of what is going on. Next time you come off the the SEA-YVR flight watch how many of your fellow passengers follow the line for international connections. That also says a lot.

I am a big proponent of the concept of Cascadia and the principle that anything that makes part of the economic corridor more business friendly is a positive for the rest of the corridor. So anything that improves Seattle and Portland is a positive for Vancouver. However SEATAC will unfortunately be a limiting factor. YVR will have to out perform to compensate.

That's my point... going forward if DL and AA both want to develop large intl hubs out of SEA where are these flights going to park? The airport is facing constraints now... runway capacity, taxiway capacity, gate capacity and apron capacity... how much more can it handle? In order for SEA to really lift its game it needs to seriously look at its footprint and deal with it. Not one additional gate is in the pipeline... how can it grow international operations significantly without additional gates?

And even if SEA more than doubled its current intl operations it would still be less than YVR's total. Simple maths. 13.7 million vs 5.7 million. And a city that is stronger economically and much larger... I also doubt SEA is big enough for both an AA and A DL hub... will be fun to see what happens... hard to understand for some I suppose. I suppose one chimes in the other isn't too far behind... as predictable as the tides... face plant!

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

And even if SEA more than doubled its current intl operations it would still be less than YVR's total. Simple maths. 13.7 million vs 5.7 million. And a city that is stronger economically and much larger... hard to understand for some I suppose.

Yes, at face value YVR has over twice the international pax as SEA. However ... does YVR international include transborder? If yes, then the overseas pax between the two is less striking.