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  #1861  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 1:32 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Capital Transit Partners did the preliminary engineering. AFAIK that is a different role than an Owner's Engineer. I have never seen any reference to there being an Owner's Engineer for the Confederation Line (although I would be happy to be corrected, but then would also wonder about their competence).
They did the preliminary engineering, but that also included helping to prepare the RFP documents (the project agreement, etc...):

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The Preliminary Engineering assignment, awarded to CTP in September 2010 and now nearing completion, required CTP in advancing the OLRT design to reduce capital and operating costs, improve operating characteristics, reduce future maintenance requirements, minimize construction related impacts and minimize impacts to adjacent properties. CTP also developed the Request for Qualifications and contributed to the related Request for Proposal documents for what will be a Design, Build, Finance and Maintain (DBFM) project.
https://www.wireservice.ca/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=6871
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  #1862  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
They did the preliminary engineering, but that also included helping to prepare the RFP documents (the project agreement, etc...):



https://www.wireservice.ca/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=6871
Yes, but none of these things describe the OTP taking on an Owner's Engineer role. If there was an owner's engineer, they would have reviewed/monitored the work of OTP.

http://www.megconsulting.ca/projects/owners-engineers-duties.php
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  #1863  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Yes, but none of these things describe the OTP taking on an Owner's Engineer role. If there was an owner's engineer, they would have reviewed/monitored the work of OTP.

http://www.megconsulting.ca/projects/owners-engineers-duties.php
Hmm, thanks for the clarification - I guess I was a little confused about what the roll of an Onwner's Engineer was.
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  #1864  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 11:53 PM
jchilds72 jchilds72 is offline
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So is the proposed new route for HFR more or less susceptible to shutdown by protest?
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  #1865  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jchilds72 View Post
So is the proposed new route for HFR more or less susceptible to shutdown by protest?
Do you mean during construction or operation like the CN line currently is?
If not, who do you think the protestors will be? I can't think of many reasons for protesting an abandoned route in relatively undeveloped areas. The government/Via Rail will probably expropriate many locations.
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  #1866  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jchilds72 View Post
So is the proposed new route for HFR more or less susceptible to shutdown by protest?
I don’t know, but what do you think makes you more vulnerable in the event of interruption: operating trunk corridor like the Kingston Sub or two parallel Corridors?

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Originally Posted by GoTrans View Post
Do you mean during construction or operation like the CN line currently is?
If not, who do you think the protestors will be? I can't think of many reasons for protesting an abandoned route in relatively undeveloped areas. The government/Via Rail will probably expropriate many locations.
The current protests have nothing to do with NIBYism, as they stem from this country’s difficulties in respecting aboriginal rights:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/tyendinaga-wetsuweten-train-blockage-1.5455123
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  #1867  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 4:14 AM
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I don’t know, but what do you think makes you more vulnerable in the event of interruption: operating trunk corridor like the Kingston Sub or two parallel Corridors?
In this case, the CN rail line is cutting through a piece of the Tyendinaga Mohawk territory. This makes it makes it much more difficult for the police to intercede. I don't think that the Havelock sub runs through any first nation territories, but I could be mistaken.
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  #1868  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 2:28 PM
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I’ve driven on Highway 7 between Peterborough and Ottawa a couple of times. I don’t recall seeing any signs indicating FN Territory, so I’m deducing that the Havelock Subdivision doesn’t run through any either.
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  #1869  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
In this case, the CN rail line is cutting through a piece of the Tyendinaga Mohawk territory. This makes it makes it much more difficult for the police to intercede.
Just to provide a map to highlight this (I drew a circle where Wyman Road crosses the CN line, which was mentioned as location of the blockage):


Anyways, the point I wanted to make is that having two parallel routes will make VIA much more resilient in the case of any blockage (in the 5 years I've worked at VIA, I believe VIA had a disruption of at least 24 hours on the Kingston Sub at least once per year, not just due to protests, but also CN derailments). That said, just with having the new (bidirectional) fleet, VIA trains could probably short-turn in Belleville and Kingston and shuttle bus passengers between both cities, adding maybe 30-90 minutes to their journeys, but at least not leaving anyone stranded...

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I don't think that the Havelock sub runs through any first nation territories, but I could be mistaken.
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
I’ve driven on Highway 7 between Peterborough and Ottawa a couple of times. I don’t recall seeing any signs indicating FN Territory, so I’m deducing that the Havelock Subdivision doesn’t run through any either.
The "Ontario First Nation Map" identifies 6 different First Nation communities East of Toronto, which are all shown with their borders on Google Maps (from West to East):
1. Mississaugas Of Scugog Island
2. Hiawatha First Nation
3. Curve Lake First Nation Indian Reserve No. 35
4. Alderville First Nation Reserve
5. Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
6. Akwesasne Reserve No. 15

I measure the minimum distance to the Havelock Sub or assumed HFR route (Ottawa - Smiths Falls Sub - Belleville Sub - Havelock Sub - Belleville Sub - Toronto) to each of these First Nations Communities as follows:

#1: 16 km north of Havelock Sub (measured from just west of Burketon Station)
#2: 12 km southeast of Havelock Sub (measured from Peterborough at N Monaghan Pkwy)
#3: 18 km north of Havelock Sub (measured from Peterborough at Armour Rd)
#4: 20 km southeast of Havelock Sub (measured from same location as #2)
#5: 31 km southeast of Havelock Sub (measured from Tweed)
#6: 33 km southeast of Alexandria Sub (measured near Maxville)

Note that #4 is traversed by the Kingston Sub (hence the current blockage), whereas #6 is less than 5 km away from the Kingston Sub. Therefore, the HFR route seems to be much "safer" than the Kingston Sub...
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  #1870  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 10:32 PM
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Here's the thing though:
Even if the project doesn't cut through any reserves, apparently consultations with FN are still needed, or is that always the case?
For example, Highway 17 from Whiteshell, MB to Kenora, ON doesn't cut through any reserves, but the twinning project has been stalled until very recently because it traverses Treaty 3 Land. To me, this seems like a case where no reserves are directly traversed (because neither Shoal Lake 39 nor 40 is directly situated on the highway) but where an FN consultation is nonetheless required.
I guess here comes my 2nd question: How do we know whether a project will traverse Treaty Lands?
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  #1871  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2020, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Here's the thing though:
Even if the project doesn't cut through any reserves, apparently consultations with FN are still needed, or is that always the case?
For example, Highway 17 from Whiteshell, MB to Kenora, ON doesn't cut through any reserves, but the twinning project has been stalled until very recently because it traverses Treaty 3 Land. To me, this seems like a case where no reserves are directly traversed (because neither Shoal Lake 39 nor 40 is directly situated on the highway) but where an FN consultation is nonetheless required.
I guess here comes my 2nd question: How do we know whether a project will traverse Treaty Lands?
At this point, significant projects always cross treaty or non-ceded land (in the case of the Ottawa valley). All or virtually all of Canada was once indigenous land.

Rail lines that cross or go very near to reserve land are more vulnerable to blockages as we are seeing today. This has nothing to do with rail line itself but another issue elsewhere in the country.

The CP rail line in Toronto has also been blocked.

I guess I am not being politically correct, but if Canada is to be competitive which benefits all including those in indigenous communities, we cannot give each and every indigenous community a veto on all projects. This will bring Canada to a total standstill. Of course, there needs to be reasonable benefits given in exchange for use of all land, but a veto is going too far. At this point, we are seeing indigenous communities at odds with each other. We have seen that with the Zibi project. It is impossible to please everybody. I would hope that indigenous populations would work more together for the greater good. We cannot return to the 17th century with indigenous communities at odds with each other.

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  #1872  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2020, 12:59 AM
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All land in Canada is treaty land or unceeded (meaning we are still working on the treaty for said land).

I myself grew up in a town under the Robinson-Huron Treaty as part of the Supreme law of the land. (A constitutional document equal to the BNA Acts). I went to a high school with considerable FN demographics with 5 reserves within the catchment area for said High School. Our assemblies were opened by drum circles and I sat next to my grandfather who sneered and said some nasty stuff during said drum circle during my sisters graduation ceremony.

Regardless of whether a rail line runs directly through FN reserves; this detail will not stop blockages till underlying issues are resolved. Railway blockades are popular in part due to the historical fact provisions in Federal law made it easy to expropriate *reserve* land (not just treaty land) without consultation or payment. See the creation of Depot Harbour as a way to both screw the Town of Parry Sound for asking too high a price from J. R. Booth so he just stole the native land on Parry Island.

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Depot Harbour is a non-Indigenous ghost town located on the central north edge of the island. Businessman John Rudolphus Booth owned the Ottawa, Arnprior and Parry Sound Railway to bring timber from the Algonquin highlands to his mill in Ottawa. Georgian Bay was seen as a good site to have as the western terminus of the railway for its deep water and its link which became part of the shortest route to send grain to the Atlantic Ocean.

Due to high land prices in Parry Sound, Mr. Booth located a deep water area with port potential on Parry Island. In order to get the land for Depot Harbour and the rail line, Mr. Booth used provisions of the Indian Act that allowed him to expropriate a total of 425 acres of land away from the First Nation, so long as it was for railway purposes.

Depot Harbour had been a source of waterway pollution in the area throughout its operation and was not favoured by many Wauksasing residents. After the town burned down and the railway pulled out, Wasauksing regained ownership of the land.
Depot Harbour is considered the greatest harbour in the Great Lakes (allegedly), and was a boom town larger then Parry Sound, till it all burned down on VJ day. All those armaments on the docks didn't help. Depot Harbour burned down in 1945, but it was not till 1987 that the FNs gained control of the land back.

Most FNs are generally asking for simple things like a share of the royalties that come from the natural resource of their ancestral lands to pay for luxuries like clean drinking water.

And acknowledging that: actors like JRBooth stole their *reserve* land, and we built things like nuclear refineries on FN land (Blind River), and the entire chemical industry of Sarnia against or on top of their municipalities. You can't look at a map of Blind River and not go- hmmm why did they build the factory 2kms out of town smack dab in the middle of the reserve?

It works now because Cameco is a good actor and it provides economic benefit for the area, but I can't help wonder hmm what was going on in the 1950s when they said yeah let's do it out here and not in Blind River proper.

The media and common interpretation of indigenous people's grievances about "stolen land" is often interpreted as referring to the very notion of Canada as a settler civilization. However, often it is in fact directly related to the theft of *reserve* lands, granted by treaty, done through amendments of the Indian Act. Some examples:

* 1911: Amended to allow municipalities and companies to expropriate portions of reserves, without surrender, for roads, railways, and other public works. Further amended to allow a judge to move an entire reserve away from a municipality if it was deemed "expedient." These amendments were also known as the "Oliver Act".

Treaty 6 Cree were relocated away from Edmonton by the Oliver Act.
Depot Harbour pre-dates this as this was an expansion of the annexation powers in the Indian Act.

* 1914: Amended to require western Indians to seek official permission before appearing in "Aboriginal costume" in any "dance, show, exhibition, stampede or pageant."

* 1918: Amended to allow the Superintendent-General to lease out uncultivated reserve lands to non-Aboriginals if the new lease-holder used it for farming or pasture.

* 1920: Amended to make it mandatory for Aboriginal parents to send their children to Indian residential school. (Indian Act, 1920 s.10(1)) Also amended to allow the Department of Indian Affairs to ban hereditary rule of bands. Further amended to allow for the involuntary enfranchisement (and loss of treaty rights) of any status Indian considered fit by the Department of Indian Affairs, without the possession of land previously required for those living off reserve. Repealed two years later but reintroduced in a modified form in 1933.

* 1927: Amended to prevent anyone (Aboriginal or otherwise) from soliciting funds for Indian legal claims without a special license from the Superintendent-General (The cabinet minister). This effectively prevented any First Nation from pursuing Aboriginal land claims.

The punishment for this was jail time.

These are key amendments that lay out a very clear timeline how the Indian Act was used to steamroll over indigenous people's largely in the name of western expansion. This leads up to the 1927 amendment that washes the hand of the Feds to make it all above the courts. Depot Harbour preceded the 1911 expansion of the expropriation powers by 20-ish years. And that's just the example that came to mind.

Just a couple links I would like to share:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jb4JesjE1A - Treaty People 23m

And I love the occasional "reconciliation punk song"

https://hotvan.bandcamp.com/track/colonial-values
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1lHlTEpj9w


Anyways just thoughts.

Railway Blockades really started with the Idle No More movement in 2012, which was directly related to the Omnibus C-45 that gutted environmental laws and changed the Indian Act to remove the "double majority" provisions without consultation or consent of indigenous people. However, you can draw a line from Occupy Wall Street (Q4 2011) to Idle No More (Q4 2012), and now I think you'll see Climate Emergency protesters taking over this tactic across North America.

Last edited by Mikeed; Feb 9, 2020 at 4:07 AM.
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  #1873  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2020, 2:15 AM
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I'm also a firm believer that the notion that the twinning of both highway 69 and other highways are stalled because of 'the first nations' is often just convenient scapegoating for delaying expenditures across larger windows of time.
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Last edited by Mikeed; Feb 9, 2020 at 2:32 AM.
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  #1874  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2020, 4:36 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
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In case it's of interest, VIA HFR reference in the Urban Toronto GO Construction thread in this post and the one above it.
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  #1875  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:44 PM
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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228071577968922625

All VIA trains in Canada are about to be cancelled.
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  #1876  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2020, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228071577968922625

All VIA trains in Canada are about to be cancelled.
Too bad there isn't a more extensive rail network that VIA/CN/CP could reroute their trains.
Maybe they shouldn't have been so severe in their rail consolidation back in the 80's/90's.
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  #1877  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2020, 12:38 PM
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I hope this is the tipping point for HFR to go ahead, using the Highway 7 corridor.
But yea, CP must be regretting ripping out Ottawa Valley Rail between Matawa and Ottawa right now. The ship really has sailed because the segment around the Town of Renfrew has become trails.
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  #1878  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2020, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
I hope this is the tipping point for HFR to go ahead, using the Highway 7 corridor.
But yea, CP must be regretting ripping out Ottawa Valley Rail between Matawa and Ottawa right now. The ship really has sailed because the segment around the Town of Renfrew has become trails.
Last weekend I drove the 7 from Ottawa to Toronto (due to VIA being shut down). The section between Peterborough and Carleton Place is pretty rugged IMO.
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  #1879  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2020, 1:09 PM
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Uhh okay, I need to clarify something:
When I said Highway 7 corridor, I really meant the Havelock Subdivision, simply because I’m more familiar with the term Highway 7. I’ve passed by Havelock on the 7 when going between TO and OTT though. It’s interesting to have a railyard right by the highway by the town.
As for terrain, IMO it’s alright for the most part between Peterborough and Madoc (except around Mamora and Lakes) but from Madoc to Tay I agree it’s pretty rugged.

Say that HFR really does happen and go down this alignment...
If the protestors will take the time to drive up and protest there, ..., I guess I will admire them for their “dedication”...
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  #1880  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2020, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Uhh okay, I need to clarify something:
When I said Highway 7 corridor, I really meant the Havelock Subdivision, simply because I’m more familiar with the term Highway 7. I’ve passed by Havelock on the 7 when going between TO and OTT though. It’s interesting to have a railyard right by the highway by the town.
As for terrain, IMO it’s alright for the most part between Peterborough and Madoc (except around Mamora and Lakes) but from Madoc to Tay I agree it’s pretty rugged.

Say that HFR really does happen and go down this alignment...
If the protestors will take the time to drive up and protest there, ..., I guess I will admire them for their “dedication”...
There are at least 5 or 6 reserves in the vicinity of that corridor.
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