VIA Rail

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Blablabla, whatever, Troll!

Please move your belligerent monologues somewhere else, so that we can return to discussing the topic at hand.

Thank you and have a great evening!

Troll?

Seriously?

What's my supposed angle? Self hatred?


Imagine for a second I have a father with status. He pulls a stunt like this. I'm embarrassed as old hell.

I know they are doing something incredibly wrong by every line of reasoning I can muster.

And your answer is something along the lines of yeah we'll never enforce the law on you people.


So if my dad beats me, the cops won't do squat etc.

Because btw that is exactly how it is.

You won't apply the law, which means native live in a world of political chaos.

All the while you're telling my its for my "protection".


Your ignorance to this reality is far more damaging than "colonialism".


The reality is "colonialism" is a scapegoat for the truth.

People like yourself can't be bothered to learn anything about the circumstances of a wide array of peoples who have almost nothing in common other than a "racial grouping".

It is the literally the equivalent of grouping the Basque of Spain and the Sami of Scandinavia into the same category.

Whats with is you won't be corrected on this issue, because it means you'd actually have to take on an appropriate form of guilt for your actions.

You can't in any way take responsibility for the actions you did not take.

"Trying to" won't defend you from not taking on the responsibilities of your own actions.

You wish to making everything about group against group because it is easie than defining people by their actions. I get it, but this is currently resulting in disastrous results.


Native peoples are not being treated as equals, the environment is not being protected and this assault on the working class is allowed to continue.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

[...]

Blablabla, whatever, Troll!

Please move your belligerent monologues somewhere else, so that we can return to discussing the topic at hand.

Thank you and have a great evening!

[lio45]

Prior to colonization, there would have been well-understood mechanisms to resolve disputes...

Such as bows, arrows, and tomahawks...?

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Great to see how many legal experts we have in this forum...

“Jail time” depends on how the judges interpret the Criminal Code, whereas the amount of damages to be recovered depends on what assets can be identified and seized from the individuals which were personally involved. In both cases, I would neither anticipate the punishment to be anywhere near the level you seem to expect nor to deter future protests.

This is an issue which needs to be addressed on a political level, by assisting the First Nation communities to develop their own formalized process to give or refuse consent on these kind of any infrastructure projects affecting their territories, preferably including their own legal system, maybe with an arbitration court consisting of judges appointed by First Nations leaders and by the government. But we shouldn’t forget that it was white men like us who destroyed the very conflict-resolution structures within the First Nations communities, for the lack of which we now reproach them:


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/b...em-coastal-gaslink-pipeline-protests-bc/ (Excellent article, which I already posted on Urban Toronto and which is a comprehensive guide to the current protests)

Fun to see we need to be legal experts to be here... And who said I was of white heritage?

Seeing your last posts, you need to chill a bit.

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why would it not work alternating from one to the other, yet it would work as an express?

Leave the current Ocean as is. On the days it does not run, run this one. Call it Atlantic.

Because the Ocean is up to 20 cars long in the summer and its usually sold out. By going the other route you eliminate the majority of the customer base so in turn you would only need a handful of coaches and maybe a service car.

Via used to have an RDC service on the NTR between Moncton and Edmundston. It has been gone for 30+ years for a reason.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

This is an issue which needs to be addressed on a political level, by assisting the First Nation communities to develop their own formalized process to give or refuse consent on these kind of any infrastructure projects affecting their territories, preferably including their own legal system, maybe with an arbitration court consisting of judges appointed by First Nations leaders and by the government. But we shouldn’t forget that it was white men like us who destroyed the very conflict-resolution structures within the First Nations communities, for the lack of which we now reproach them:

If that were the policy the Federal Government choose to adopt then then there is a high likelihood no more infrastructure would ever be built in Canada again. There are usually multiple indigenous ethnic groups claiming "traditional territory" on any particular piece of land anywhere in Canada, and multiple groups/entities claiming to represent each of those communities, including elected band councils, the hereditary nobility, and random groups that come out of the woodwork. This of course gets multiplied if discussing linear infrastructure such as a railway or pipeline. Getting unanimity from dozens of groups for any infrastructure project would be almost impossible.

[roger1818]

Can we move the discussion of First Nation politics to another thread? I realize this came about because of the blockade, but we have traveled too far away from VIA Rail service IMHO.

[Dengler Avenue]

Yea sure we will walk back to the discussion about VIA. I wonder what we can discuss now that all trains are cancelled though.

[Acajack]

For some strange reason until last night I had missed the part where the process for this pipeline included consultation and buy-in from ALL indigenous communities along the group, including the official reps from the community that these elders are claiming to speak for.

I had erroneously assumed that this community had been ignored or perhaps not fully involved. But that's obviously not the case.

That actually changes my view a lot, because a basic premise of negotiation is that everyone needs to send to the table people who have the authority to make a deal on their behalf.

I am not knowledgeable on indigenous governance in that part of BC but if everyone from the federal government to multi-billion corporations all the way down the line was willing to talk to and deal with this band council, even if they don't have unanimous support (is this ever true of elected officials?) it does appear they have some credibility.

The feds, the provinces and many other actors certainly have a lot to be ashamed of on the indigenous file, but if you can't make a deal with anyone, one that actually sticks , how are we supposed to get anything done?

[Dengler Avenue]

That’s my concern too. When too many parties come to the table, nothing gets done.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

That’s my concern too. When too many parties come to the table, nothing gets done.

And my wife and I were saying this morning that if an agreement is reached with these elders, who's to say another dissatisfied group won't come out of the woodwork again... and another and another?

Where will it end?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And my wife and I were saying this morning that if an agreement is reached with these elders, who's to say another dissatisfied group won't come out of the woodwork again... and another and another?

Where will it end?

And who do these elders speak for? They are hereditary chiefs, not elected members of the band councils.

I'm a monarchist, and I appreciate the Queen, but I would be very upset if she suddenly decided to rule Canada again by edict. Hereditary chiefs are the same. They can be symbols of their tribe, and respected elders whose opinions should be listened to, but in the end, democracy should prevail.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And my wife and I were saying this morning that if an agreement is reached with these elders, who's to say another dissatisfied group won't come out of the woodwork again... and another and another?

Where will it end?

Exactly. We need to draw the line. No negotiations. Clear the tracks by force.

[VANRIDERFAN]

The elected band councils are colonial constructs foisted upon first nations and therefore do not have the legitimacy (especially in the Woke culture) as the hereditary chiefs.
At least that is this weeks excuse, but rest assured if this get settled there will be another excuse and another and another.

Somehow, someway there has to be a process that is satisfying to all.

Until last week AFN Chief Perry Bellegarde seemed to be pretty silent on this issue. Now he's following the tenant of Alexandre Auguste Ledru-Rollin - "There go the people. I must follow them, for I am their leader."

https://www.bartleby.com/73/1021.html

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

The elected band councils are colonial constructs foisted upon first nations and therefore do not have the legitimacy (especially in the Woke culture) as the hereditary chiefs.
At least that is this weeks excuse, but rest assured if this get settled there will be another excuse and another and another.

Somehow, someway there has to be a process that is satisfying to all.

Until last week AFN Chief Perry Bellegarde seemed to be pretty silent on this issue. Now he's following the tenant of Alexandre Auguste Ledru-Rollin - "There go the people. I must follow them, for I am their leader."

https://www.bartleby.com/73/1021.html

The band council framework may not be ideal, but electing people in some way, to represent you and make decisions which everyone then has to abide by - until the next elections anyway, is not just "the white man's way". They do that in Japan, India and Africa too.

[milomilo]

This is all very messy, but it's a necessary mess. I hope this properly gets sorted and the feds don't just fix the immediate problem and kick the can down the road (lol, that's exactly what will happen).

I support reconciliation, but Canada is Canada. These hereditary chiefs and traditional lands are not legitimate, they rightly should not exist. It's past time that the government of the land made this clear, even if it won't look good. They owe it to the people of first Nations, as they will never prosper if this non system continues.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The band council framework may not be ideal, but electing people (in some way to represent you and make decisions which everyone then has to abide by - until the next elections anyway, is not just "the white man's way". They do that in Japan, India and Africa too.

Mostly as a result of white men forcing them to, no...?

I agree though, it's not racist to say democracy is more desirable than hereditary rule.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

For a couple of years in the late 1960s....the Ocean did run via Edmundston on the NTR but by 1970 is was back on it's former route through Bathurst, Campbellton, Rimouski where the population is. It was replaced on the NTR with separate local RDC 'Railiners' between Moncton and Edmundston.....and between Edmundston and Charny/Quebec City. (overnight stopover in Edmundston required)

The Edmundston-Charny route back then is different than what a train via the NTR would follow today. In the late '70s a 20 mile cut-off was built between Pelletier on the NTR down to St. Andre Jct on the Montmagny Subdivision, 15 miles west of Riviere-du-Loup. This eventually allowed about 160 miles of the old Monk Subdivision's slow track with it's twists and turns up in the Notre-Dame Mountains between Pelletier and Joffre Yard to be abandoned.....and get trains down to the fast straight track of the Montmagny Sub in the St. Lawrence Valley.

The Edmundston – Charny RDC Railiners never run on the new cut-off but stayed up on the old Monk Sub until they were discontinued in 1979.

October 1968 Timetable below (Ocean via Edmundston)







October 1971 Timetable below (RDC's via Edmundston in Table 10)

These timetables are fascinating as you see a lot of communities that no longer have rail service. I'm curious on how Sydney fits into the Ocean run - was it a rendezvous situation whereby passengers from a train coming from Sydney disembarked at some location (Truro?) and boarded the Ocean? Then I also see Charlottetown in the schedule - how did that work?

Thanks very much for posting these.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Mostly as a result of white men forcing them to, no...?

I agree though, it's not racist to say democracy is more desirable than hereditary rule.

I agree with those who say this conversation should migrate to another thread about First Nations governance - perhaps this one?

On the point, I am tiring of people indicating this is "white man" vs indigenous people - that narrative sounds like it's a throwback from a century ago. Clearly it's a case of many indigenous communities banding together to put pressure on the government of Canada to help a lone indigenous community who has had a legal decision fall not in their favour.

Let's just try to keep our narratives clear?

[Acajack]

............