VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by esquire

There are at least theoretical plans to eventually built a RT ROW through the station (it currently runs on the street in front of the station), but who knows when that will happen. Even if it did though, there would be next to nil connection activity between local transit and VIA Rail.

FWIW there is no magic to the Union Station name... it just refers to the fact that GTP, NTR and CNoR built the station together instead of building separate terminals (CPR had its own similarly-sized terminal on the northern edge of downtown Winnipeg - it still stands today but is no longer used by any railway). NP and GN used it as well when there was still rail service to the US. You could in principle have a small shed in the middle of nowhere where two railways meet and that could be a "union station" as well.

The fact that there is little service to Winnipeg's Union Station just reflects the decline in VIA's western services over the years. There are currently 8 trains a week coming and going on two routes. Contrast that with 1989 when there would have been at least 40 a week over four routes. Those numbers would go up significantly with each decade you go back.

It would be nice to see some of those routes return. Maybe the government can use it as part of their environmental platform.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

So that’s why they’re called Union Stations.

Did you not know that? Every "union station" is due to the desire to combine all services in an area to one station for better connectivity.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That connection would likely be possible after HFR, but back in November you said:

I m not against adding to the Corridor so much as I am on focusing our resources on it. I am surprised there is no early trains to meet the Canadian leaving so that it can grab potentially more customers.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Did you not know that? Every "union station" is due to the desire to combine all services in an area to one station for better connectivity.

If I'm not mistaken, Regina also had a Union Station, now used as a casino.

Toronto did have a separate CP station originally. That's still standing, and is now the Summerhill LCBO store. It was originally known as North Toronto Station, not unlike Edmonton where the CP station was known as South Edmonton Station.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

If I'm not mistaken, Regina also had a Union Station, now used as a casino.

Toronto did have a separate CP station originally. That's still standing, and is now the Summerhill LCBO store. It was originally known as North Toronto Station, not unlike Edmonton where the CP station was known as South Edmonton Station.

When passenger rail was a bigger deal than it is now, it was common for bigger cities to have multiple busy railway stations. Montreal in particular had several... Windsor Station, Bonaventure Station, Viger Station, Parc Station, possibly others?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Did you not know that? Every "union station" is due to the desire to combine all services in an area to one station for better connectivity.

To be fair, Dengler Avenue's primary focus is highways and is only just starting to get interested in other forms of transportation, so it isn't surprising he wouldn't know that.

I m not against adding to the Corridor so much as I am on focusing our resources on it. I am surprised there is no early trains to meet the Canadian leaving so that it can grab potentially more customers.

Without dedicated tracks, VIA is limited as to how many trains a day they can run on CN's tracks, so they are choosing schedules which will give them the biggest bang or their buck. With the current train speeds, to catch a train out of Toronto at 9:00am, you would need a train that leaves somewhere around 3:00 or 3:30 am. Not many people will want to do that, so they would rather pick departure times that are more popular for everyone.

The reality is, most people catching The Canadian will pay for a hotel in Toronto the night before rather than risk a connection that, if delayed, would mean missing the train. It isn't as if you could catch the next one a few hours later. The same goes when catching a cruise ship, it is advised that you not fly in on the day of departure but fly in a day (or better yet 2 days) ahead of time.

[Aylmer]

I read somewhere that the Canadian used to wait for the Montreal-Toronto night train when it was delayed.

On a related note, I wish VIA ran overnight services. Daytime train service is only really practical if the trip is under 3-4h or 400-500km. But overnight services are competitive for distances upwards of 12h or 800-1200km because it's travelling during times you can't or wouldn't want to be flying or driving anyhow. And with a lot of our rail service being painfully slow compared with driving (I'm looking at you, 50km/h Montreal-NYC), night service turns this from a bug to almost an advantage.

Their effect is multiplied by the connections it allows too; A nightly Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal would mean that someone, say, from Windsor could have a full weekend in Quebec City. Today, the same trip would allow you just enough time to get there before you need to turn right back.

It would be something quite different from the 'land-cruise' Canadian and Ocean of today. If you're just getting on, sleeping, and getting off, you only really need a bed and maybe someplace to get some basic pre-made meals. It would require investments in the equipment - UrbanSky has written in the past about their cost. But I think it would turn some long and useless routes into highly practical options for everyday people, increase the value of the connecting services on either end, and offer the possibility of introducing some attractive new transport products in areas which aren't served.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I read somewhere that the Canadian used to wait for the Montreal-Toronto night train when it was delayed.

On a related note, I wish VIA ran overnight services. Daytime train service is only really practical if the trip is under 3-4h or 400-500km. But overnight services are competitive for distances upwards of 12h or 800-1200km because it's travelling during times you can't or wouldn't want to be flying or driving anyhow. And with a lot of our rail service being painfully slow compared with driving (I'm looking at you, 50km/h Montreal-NYC), night service turns this from a bug to almost an advantage.

Their effect is multiplied by the connections it allows too; A nightly Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal would mean that someone, say, from Windsor could have a full weekend in Quebec City. Today, the same trip would allow you just enough time to get there before you need to turn right back.

It would be something quite different from the 'land-cruise' Canadian and Ocean of today. If you're just getting on, sleeping, and getting off, you only really need a bed and maybe someplace to get some basic pre-made meals. It would require investments in the equipment - UrbanSky has written in the past about their cost. But I think it would turn some long and useless routes into highly practical options for everyday people, increase the value of the connecting services on either end, and offer the possibility of introducing some attractive new transport products in areas which aren't served.

Routes like The Canadian could be broken up so that some run during the day or night. I know, I know CN wouldn't be too happy about that.

[jawagord]

Will Via’s expansion plans pass an environmental review and indigenous consultations? The Liberal government has championed social license and reconciliation which means any transportation project is now fair game for protesters.

Protesters say they are blocking the tracks to send a message about what’s happening in Wet’suwet’en Territory. Six people were arrested Thursday at a natural gas pipeline worksite near Houston, B.C.

The protest in Ontario began Thursday afternoon. The Tyendinaga protesters say they will continue to block the tracks until the RCMP leave Wet’suwet’en Territory.


https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/via-rai...ecause-of-first-nation-protest-1.4801579

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I read somewhere that the Canadian used to wait for the Montreal-Toronto night train when it was delayed.

On a related note, I wish VIA ran overnight services. Daytime train service is only really practical if the trip is under 3-4h or 400-500km.......

It's was 20 years ago last month that VIA launched it's new 'Enterprise' to give overnight train service between Montreal and Toronto another try....10 years after the original 'Cavalier' had been discontinued. It seemed like the perfect market for an overnight train: 340 miles apart but it just didn't work.

The Enterprise was one train VIA did give a good try. It was extensively advertised but there just didn't seem to be a market for overnight train travel anymore in the corridor. With fast day trains each-way....people just wanted to be home in their own beds at night. Not in a hotel room....let alone a sleeper. It lasted about 5 years.

I received discount coupons while travelling in VIA-1 (daytime first class....now called Business Class) for a sleeper one-way and return by fast afternoon train but it just didn’t work for most. The only times the trains were full was on Fri and Sun evenings and that was mostly in the coaches. On days the Enterprise connected with the Canadian....you did have a few more in the sleepers, but not many. For awhile VIA ran a 'Park Car' on the end and the times I rode the Enterprise....I always met one or two other railfans there also enjoying the nostalgia of overnight train travel.

[esquire]

It's worth noting that hotel room rates were much cheaper 20 years ago than they are now. You could get a decent room in Toronto for under $150 in those days, it's more than double that now, maybe triple. I wonder if that might make people look a little more favorably on an overnight train, if the cost comparison is a little more appealing for the train?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by jawagord

Will Via’s expansion plans pass an environmental review and indigenous consultations? The Liberal government has championed social license and reconciliation which means any transportation project is now fair game for protesters.

Protesters say they are blocking the tracks to send a message about what’s happening in Wet’suwet’en Territory. Six people were arrested Thursday at a natural gas pipeline worksite near Houston, B.C.

The protest in Ontario began Thursday afternoon. The Tyendinaga protesters say they will continue to block the tracks until the RCMP leave Wet’suwet’en Territory.


https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/via-rai...ecause-of-first-nation-protest-1.4801579

This is going to create another Ipperwash or Oka.

Just imagine if we were to try to build a new long distance rail line. In today's political mess, it would never get built.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Toronto did have a separate CP station originally. That's still standing, and is now the Summerhill LCBO store. It was originally known as North Toronto Station...…..

Yes.....North Toronto has been nicely restored by the LCBO.







It was opened in 1916 by Canadian Pacific and the last train departed in 1930.....so a very short life span as a passenger station.

The North Toronto route has been proposed for future GO service

https://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2106.shtml

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

It's was 20 years ago last month that VIA launched it's new 'Enterprise' to give overnight train service between Montreal and Toronto another try....10 years after the original 'Cavalier' had been discontinued. It seemed like the perfect market for an overnight train: 340 miles apart but it just didn't work.

The Enterprise was one train VIA did give a good try. It was extensively advertised but there just didn't seem to be a market for overnight train travel anymore in the corridor. With fast day trains each-way....people just wanted to be home in their own beds at night. Not in a hotel room....let alone a sleeper. It lasted about 5 years.

I received discount coupons while travelling in VIA-1 (daytime first class....now called Business Class) for a sleeper one-way and return by fast afternoon train but it just didn’t work for most. The only times the trains were full was on Fri and Sun evenings and that was mostly in the coaches. On days the Enterprise connected with the Canadian....you did have a few more in the sleepers, but not many. For awhile VIA ran a 'Park Car' on the end and the times I rode the Enterprise....I always met one or two other railfans there also enjoying the nostalgia of overnight train travel.

I wonder if the Enterprise targeted the wrong demographic. The Renaissance sleepers only have two options: coach seats, or large double-occupancy sleepers.

- The coach seats are only viable for a pretty small group of people who are willing to spend a night barely sleeping in highly mediocre seats.
- The large (i.e expensive) sleepers are only attainable for people who'd have no problem paying a short-haul flight or a night in a nice hotel. The night train doesn't offer them much appeal.

I have a hunch that there's a lot more in the middle: people who are price-sensitive, but still need the comfort of a bed. I fall into this category; I'm no longer willing (or able!) to sleep in a seat for a night and arrive with aches and pains. But at around $300 in 2001 dollars (almost $400 today) for the Enterprise cabins, it'd have been far too much for me to justify.

It seems to be common in Europe to have cabins of 3 or 6 berths. For those who are willing to pay for the privacy or travelling in a group, there's the option of reserving the whole compartment. The more price-sensitive can reserve a single bunk in a gender-specific or mixed compartment, much like a hostel.

I think that a similar approach could have a much wider appeal than the coach/sleeper offering on the Enterprise.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I wonder if the Enterprise targeted the wrong demographic. The Renaissance sleepers only have two options: coach seats, or large double-occupancy sleepers.

- The coach seats are only viable for a pretty small group of people who are willing to spend a night barely sleeping in highly mediocre seats.
- The large (i.e expensive) sleepers are only attainable for people who'd have no problem paying a short-haul flight or a night in a nice hotel. The night train doesn't offer them much appeal.

I have a hunch that there's a lot more in the middle: people who are price-sensitive, but still need the comfort of a bed. I fall into this category; I'm no longer willing (or able!) to sleep in a seat for a night and arrive with aches and pains. But at around $300 in 2001 dollars (almost $400 today) for the Enterprise cabins, it'd have been far too much for me to justify.

It seems to be common in Europe to have cabins of 3 or 6 berths. For those who are willing to pay for the privacy or travelling in a group, there's the option of reserving the whole compartment. The more price-sensitive can reserve a single bunk in a gender-specific or mixed compartment, much like a hostel.

I think that a similar approach could have a much wider appeal than the coach/sleeper offering on the Enterprise.

This makes some sense if you know your target audience. It is almost as though VIA has no idea who to target and who will use the service.

[roger1818]

I just discovered this excerpt from the Halifax Examiner:

How many different ways can you say “short term gain for long term pain”?
Morning File, Wednesday, February 5, 2020
FEBRUARY 5, 2020 BY ERICA BUTLER
. . .

6. The Ocean in jeopardy

If you wanted to take that train trip across the country, or to Truro for that matter, you’d better get to it soon.

Come November 1, 2020, VIA Rail will no longer be able to turn its trains around in Halifax, which could put The Ocean, the 116-year-old train service linking Halifax and Montreal, in jeopardy. According to VIA’s 2019 Corporate Plan, the rail loop that VIA uses to turn its train around is on Crown land, but that land is leased to PSA Halifax (formerly Halterm), and the global shipping company has decided they need the land.

There are options for VIA. They could replace the current Renaissance rail car sets used to run the Ocean with trains that can run in both directions, and eliminate the need for a turnaround loop. Their corporate plan indicates they are considering plans to “reconfigure” their train sets and “optimize the cycling and allocation” of their long-haul equipment, but a full-scale replacement of the Ocean’s equipment is not mentioned.

In the likely event that a newly “optimized” Ocean means further cuts to the already beleaguered service, VIA could also offer a consolation prize to Maritime travelers. VIA first announced plans for “Eastern intercity” regional train service in 2015, three years after they drastically cut The Ocean’s service down to three trips per week. Their 2019 corporate plan revives the idea, though with little progress to show for it.

VIA Rail’s Eastern Intercity rail service map, from its 2019 Corporate Plan.

Besides mentioning the pressing need for the Eastern Intercity (which already existed even before the impending end of The Ocean in Halifax), VIA’s corporate plan has nothing much to report on the project since the Examiner covered it back in 2017. Testing of the Rail Diesel Cars proposed to run the regional service was done in 2017, and CN approved their use in February 2018. The plan gives an estimate for infrastructure upgrades needed to run the service ($6.3 million), and then simply states, “further details regarding the infrastructure upgrades are pending.”

In their most recent newsletter, rail advocacy group Transport Action Canada alerted its members of VIA’s impending eviction from the Halifax rail loop, with some concern over the political power structure revealed therein: “A corporation with a lease on public property, and apparently aided and abetted by the Port of Halifax and CN, is bullying a federal Crown corporation into submission, and threatening the very existence of what little passenger rail service Atlantic Canada has left.”

VIA corporate plan makes a similar point, but more subtly, stating that the challenges with The Ocean and The Canadian (the western arm of VIA’s service) are “illustrative of the inherent shortcomings of the TSA [train service agreements] and the relationships with infrastructure providers.” VIA, the crown corporation, has control over only 2.5% of the rail it uses to run its service. It leases the rest from mostly formerly publicly-owned rail owners like CN.

Transport Action advocates giving VIA more control through federal legislation. I wrote about this issue in November 2016, shortly after a disappointing federal transportation strategy announced by then minister Marc Garneau completely ignored passenger rail outside of Ontario and Quebec.

You might think it’s VIA Rail’s own decisions that have killed off passenger rail in the Maritimes. They are the ones, after all, who cut the schedules so radically. But, says [Transport Action board member] Bruce Budd, the sorry state of passenger rail here is “not entirely, or even mainly VIA Rail’s fault. They were hobbled from the beginning.”

Budd is referring to the fact that VIA Rail was formed without a parliamentary mandate or rights. This is in contrast to its American cousin, Amtrak, which as it took over passenger service on the major US railways, was given regulated priority access to the lines controlled by those railways. Here in Canada, our national railway company was privatized in 1995 without so much as a single guarantee that VIA Rail would have continued access to the formerly public tracks.

So what’s happened since 1995? CN has removed signalling and sidings along stretches of single track in order to save on maintenance costs. Despite massive federal investments paid directly to CN to fix up stretches of track used by VIA, speed limits remain ridiculously low for passenger rail. Some stretches through New Brunswick have trains maxing out at 30 miles an hour (about 50 kph). VIA passenger trains get shunted into sidings that are fewer and farther between to wait for long, heavy, and slow freight trains. Their on time performance goes down and down. Meanwhile, CN’s stock goes up, and it pays out dividends to shareholders, including its biggest single owner, Bill Gates.

https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/.../#6.%C2%A0%20The%20Ocean%20in%20jeopardy

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I just discovered this excerpt from the Halifax Examiner:


https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/.../#6.%C2%A0%20The%20Ocean%20in%20jeopardy

This speaks to the real issues, not just on the Ocean and Canadian, but on all Via routes. There are no easy fixes, but for this, maybe having an engine facing the other way so that they can simply uncouple the coaches, drive to the opposite end, and recouple. the Agawa Canyon tour train did that.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is going to create another Ipperwash or Oka.

Just imagine if we were to try to build a new long distance rail line. In today's political mess, it would never get built.

They seem to be settling in for a long haul.

Via Rail has cancelled all trains running between Toronto and Ottawa Saturday, as well as trains between Toronto and Montreal, following the third day of protests near Belleville, Ont.

Members of the Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory say they'll stop train traffic until the RCMP leave We'tsuwet'en territory in British Columbia, where a recent court order cleared the way for work on the Coastal GasLink pipeline.

Saturday's cancellations affect trains running in both directions.

Photos from the protests — which began Thursday evening — show a dump truck parked next to the rails and signs that read "RCMP get out" and "Indianland."

Via Rail cancelled 28 trains between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto on Friday. Belleville is located approximately halfway between Toronto and Ottawa.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I just discovered this excerpt from the Halifax Examiner:


https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/.../#6.%C2%A0%20The%20Ocean%20in%20jeopardy

Originally Posted by jawagord

They seem to be settling in for a long haul.

Via Rail has cancelled all trains running between Toronto and Ottawa Saturday, as well as trains between Toronto and Montreal, following the third day of protests near Belleville, Ont.

Members of the Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory say they'll stop train traffic until the RCMP leave We'tsuwet'en territory in British Columbia, where a recent court order cleared the way for work on the Coastal GasLink pipeline.

Saturday's cancellations affect trains running in both directions.

Photos from the protests — which began Thursday evening — show a dump truck parked next to the rails and signs that read "RCMP get out" and "Indianland."

Via Rail cancelled 28 trains between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto on Friday. Belleville is located approximately halfway between Toronto and Ottawa.

I could see Ford doing what Harris did. So, the RCMP won't be doing anything in Ontario, but the OPP, now that is a different situation.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This speaks to the real issues, not just on the Ocean and Canadian, but on all Via routes. There are no easy fixes, but for this, maybe having an engine facing the other way so that they can simply uncouple the coaches, drive to the opposite end, and recouple. the Agawa Canyon tour train did that.

Part of the issue is the Renaissance rail car sets can't run in both directions. The sleepers probably aren't much of an issue, but the coaches would all have all the seats facing backwards. It would also be strange having a park car at the front of the train.

Also, all of VIA's locomotives only have cabs at one end, so you would have to find a way to turn it around somewhere. Their F40s are particularly problematic as they are geared such that they can only travel backwards at low speeds. The plan is to fix this so that they can be used in push-pull operations.

I have often thought that VIA should have kept some of their LRC locomotives for the purpose of turning them into cab cars. It would mean the elimination of the park cars from the Ocean, it wouldn't solve the issues with the coaches, and they would still need to resolve the issues with running the F40s backwards, but it would be a solution.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Part of the issue is the Renaissance rail car sets can't run in both directions. The sleepers probably aren't much of an issue, but the coaches would all have all the seats facing backwards. It would also be strange having a park car at the front of the train.

Also, all of VIA's locomotives only have cabs at one end, so you would have to find a way to turn it around somewhere. Their F40s are particularly problematic as they are geared such that they can only travel backwards at low speeds. The plan is to fix this so that they can be used in push-pull operations.

I have often thought that VIA should have kept some of their LRC locomotives for the purpose of turning them into cab cars. It would mean the elimination of the park cars from the Ocean, it wouldn't solve the issues with the coaches, and they would still need to resolve the issues with running the F40s backwards, but it would be a solution.

All this makes me think of modern high speed trains. They have a cab car at each end. Yes, it may be nice to sit at the end of the train and enjoy the view, but having the ease of going either way with a cab car would be better.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

It's was 20 years ago last month that VIA launched it's new 'Enterprise' to give overnight train service between Montreal and Toronto another try....10 years after the original 'Cavalier' had been discontinued. It seemed like the perfect market for an overnight train: 340 miles apart but it just didn't work.

The Enterprise was one train VIA did give a good try. It was extensively advertised but there just didn't seem to be a market for overnight train travel anymore in the corridor. With fast day trains each-way....people just wanted to be home in their own beds at night. Not in a hotel room....let alone a sleeper. It lasted about 5 years.

I received discount coupons while travelling in VIA-1 (daytime first class....now called Business Class) for a sleeper one-way and return by fast afternoon train but it just didn’t work for most. The only times the trains were full was on Fri and Sun evenings and that was mostly in the coaches. On days the Enterprise connected with the Canadian....you did have a few more in the sleepers, but not many. For awhile VIA ran a 'Park Car' on the end and the times I rode the Enterprise....I always met one or two other railfans there also enjoying the nostalgia of overnight train travel.

I remember back in 12th grade in 1986, we had a geography project that involved us breaking up into groups and planning trips. It was such a fun project that we decided to actually do one of the trips. The one we picked was taking the train to Montreal from London for a long weekend in November. To cut costs, we decided on the overnight train from Toronto to Montreal so that we had one less hotel night. It was a fun weekend but man was that train trip rough. I think it had to have been 9 hours or so for the Toronto to Montreal leg, but there was a lot of snow that night so the train might have been slowed down by that. We had an LRC for the return trip, which flew by and was luxurious by comparison lol.