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  #3981  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 3:46 PM
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One interesting and anecdotal thing about where (one set of) my parents live in inner-suburban Calgary, in a 1970s vintage suburb that's generally of decent design, save the teardowns being replaced with mcmansions. Most people don't seem to care that much about the exterior of their house as viewed from the street and much more care is given to backyards in general. If anything trees are used to screen original houses as much as possible.

However, people seem to get positively irate if someone parks in front of their house - heard this from my parents as well as others in the area during neighbourhood parties. Living in the central city where street parking is a necessity for many it just seems bizarre. They were particularly angry when an LRT station opened nearby due to the thought of the area being "invaded" by parking cars and ruining property values. My suggestion was implementing permit parking near the station ("ridiculous!!!"), which is of course what happened shortly after it opened...

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The aridity and other generally difficult growing conditions for most trees and shrubs out there also doesn't help dull the austere character.

From Ontario to Nova Scotia things tend to be much more lush and within even a few years this tends to make even the most mundane suburban street feel a lot more inviting.

It is more difficult in Southern Alberta, but still very possible to accomplish. Older areas do have an impressive tree coverage as well as plenty of smaller, resilient shrubs, bushes, etc. Newer areas on the other hand almost make this impossible by design - the extremely narrow lots often don't allow for enough frontage for any significant trees. As has been discussed many people aren't planting much in their backyards either. Not sure what the current situation is with public frontages, but areas of equivalent age in the suburban GTA or Ottawa do seem to have a lot more public trees and the difference can't be fully accounted for by our better growing conditions.

My other set of parents live outside Calgary and built a house in an acreage subdivision that was essentially bare prairie 25 years ago. For all intents and purposes it is completely screened in by larger trees (a mixture heavy on coniferous and larch trees) with gardens within the interior. This was a particularly difficult property as wind was funneled around a hill and made it difficult for new transplants to take root. Most people (myself included!) wouldn't have the effort to do this though.
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  #3982  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 3:51 PM
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Did some quick math in my head summing the number of snout houses my relatives have owned and it's 100%. This is based on my aunts/uncles, their grown kids, my childhood home, and if the house is detached, two storey. The number is 17 for 17.

Then there's my bro in law, who has had 5 houses, 4 in the GTA and 1 up north. All snout. The other BIL had 1 in the GTA but then he moved to cottage country and built a new house on a lake so obviously not snout. Their parents are still in the snout house that those BILs grew up in.

I can't think of a single friend while growing up or one now that doesn't own a snout house (if two storey, detached).

I guess this shouldn't be surprising given I'm in the GTA and never lived in older neighbourhoods, except now, but I have a semi.
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  #3983  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DrJoe View Post
True to a certain extent but must be extremely true in Alberta where the suburban homes are truly ugly. A snout house in Ontario is nicer looking than even a decent looking, for Alberta, house because the Ontario house still has decent exterior finishes, nicer trees and landscaping.
Our suburbs are shit, but I've never seen anything in Alberta like these infamous examples from Markham and the GTA:





The Dawn of the Dead remake also had a pretty atrocious looking GTA suburb in the intro that I will never forget.
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  #3984  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The aridity and other generally difficult growing conditions for most trees and shrubs out there also doesn't help dull the austere character.

From Ontario to Nova Scotia things tend to be much more lush and within even a few years this tends to make even the most mundane suburban street feel a lot more inviting.
I agree the climate here makes it worse. That's why it's so inexcusable to have suburbs without trees anywhere out east.
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  #3985  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:32 PM
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The classic Markham examples that keep coming up are a bit misleading as they were taken pretty much right when the suburbs were completed. In the second example you can see that driveways are yet to be paved and privacy fencing in backyards is still mostly absent. In the first you can spot front yard trees which would have been planted by the developer (likely mandated by the municipality) in front of most properties.

While certainly nothing to write home about, those examples today look something like this (I'm not sure where the exact pictures were taken but these would be pretty close):

https://goo.gl/maps/21LZ3rxNLpr1xMgz7
https://goo.gl/maps/fQmNaGNhxcehLPri8
https://goo.gl/maps/qyzTGpLL77p9tAK19

To me the ugliest part is the asphalt driveways, but some have been replaced with interlock and thankfully they aren't overly wide. Front garages are the norm, but the wide / shallow lot configuration does allow for a visible front entrance and living space in most cases.

If you go a bit older the trees have filled in much more and provide for a somewhat pleasant streetscape:

https://goo.gl/maps/RMUgaXJc8n5ZKVEp8
https://goo.gl/maps/UGwYumqmyEm8ojmc8
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  #3986  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
One interesting and anecdotal thing about where (one set of) my parents live in inner-suburban Calgary, in a 1970s vintage suburb that's generally of decent design, save the teardowns being replaced with mcmansions. Most people don't seem to care that much about the exterior of their house as viewed from the street and much more care is given to backyards in general. If anything trees are used to screen original houses as much as possible.

However, people seem to get positively irate if someone parks in front of their house - heard this from my parents as well as others in the area during neighbourhood parties. Living in the central city where street parking is a necessity for many it just seems bizarre. They were particularly angry when an LRT station opened nearby due to the thought of the area being "invaded" by parking cars and ruining property values. My suggestion was implementing permit parking near the station ("ridiculous!!!"), which is of course what happened shortly after it opened...
I take it they live somewhere along the WLRT line?



Quote:
It is more difficult in Southern Alberta, but still very possible to accomplish. Older areas do have an impressive tree coverage as well as plenty of smaller, resilient shrubs, bushes, etc. Newer areas on the other hand almost make this impossible by design - the extremely narrow lots often don't allow for enough frontage for any significant trees. As has been discussed many people aren't planting much in their backyards either. Not sure what the current situation is with public frontages, but areas of equivalent age in the suburban GTA or Ottawa do seem to have a lot more public trees and the difference can't be fully accounted for by our better growing conditions.

My other set of parents live outside Calgary and built a house in an acreage subdivision that was essentially bare prairie 25 years ago. For all intents and purposes it is completely screened in by larger trees (a mixture heavy on coniferous and larch trees) with gardens within the interior. This was a particularly difficult property as wind was funneled around a hill and made it difficult for new transplants to take root. Most people (myself included!) wouldn't have the effort to do this though.
Yes our inner city suburbs have impressive tree cover. The issue is they require lots of water to grow and the city seems to only water boulevard trees for the first couple years. They just hacked down a whole bunch in my neighbourhood recently that all ended up dying. The tiny lots in new suburbs definitely compound this problem as well since there is not enough space to plant much variety. Tower poplars seem to be the norm in new communities for this reason.
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  #3987  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megadude View Post
Did some quick math in my head summing the number of snout houses my relatives have owned and it's 100%. This is based on my aunts/uncles, their grown kids, my childhood home, and if the house is detached, two storey. The number is 17 for 17.

Then there's my bro in law, who has had 5 houses, 4 in the GTA and 1 up north. All snout. The other BIL had 1 in the GTA but then he moved to cottage country and built a new house on a lake so obviously not snout. Their parents are still in the snout house that those BILs grew up in.

I can't think of a single friend while growing up or one now that doesn't own a snout house (if two storey, detached).

I guess this shouldn't be surprising given I'm in the GTA and never lived in older neighbourhoods, except now, but I have a semi.
This seems like a lot. Are we all posting with the same definition of a snout house in mind?
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  #3988  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
The classic Markham examples that keep coming up are a bit misleading as they were taken pretty much right when the suburbs were completed. In the second example you can see that driveways are yet to be paved and privacy fencing in backyards is still mostly absent. In the first you can spot front yard trees which would have been planted by the developer (likely mandated by the municipality) in front of most properties.

While certainly nothing to write home about, those examples today look something like this (I'm not sure where the exact pictures were taken but these would be pretty close):

https://goo.gl/maps/21LZ3rxNLpr1xMgz7
https://goo.gl/maps/fQmNaGNhxcehLPri8
https://goo.gl/maps/qyzTGpLL77p9tAK19

To me the ugliest part is the asphalt driveways, but some have been replaced with interlock and thankfully they aren't overly wide. Front garages are the norm, but the wide / shallow lot configuration does allow for a visible front entrance and living space in most cases.

If you go a bit older the trees have filled in much more and provide for a somewhat pleasant streetscape:

https://goo.gl/maps/RMUgaXJc8n5ZKVEp8
https://goo.gl/maps/UGwYumqmyEm8ojmc8
That looks slightly better. Agreed that asphalt driveways are hideous.
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  #3989  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
I agree the climate here makes it worse. That's why it's so inexcusable to have suburbs without trees anywhere out east.
Totally agree. Much of my neighbourhood now has fairly mature vegetation and unfortunately in some cases the owners have chopped down beautiful mature trees because they claim they're too big and they "hide the house" from the street.

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  #3990  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
The classic Markham examples that keep coming up are a bit misleading as they were taken pretty much right when the suburbs were completed. In the second example you can see that driveways are yet to be paved and privacy fencing in backyards is still mostly absent. In the first you can spot front yard trees which would have been planted by the developer (likely mandated by the municipality) in front of most properties.

While certainly nothing to write home about, those examples today look something like this (I'm not sure where the exact pictures were taken but these would be pretty close):

https://goo.gl/maps/21LZ3rxNLpr1xMgz7
https://goo.gl/maps/fQmNaGNhxcehLPri8
https://goo.gl/maps/qyzTGpLL77p9tAK19

To me the ugliest part is the asphalt driveways, but some have been replaced with interlock and thankfully they aren't overly wide. Front garages are the norm, but the wide / shallow lot configuration does allow for a visible front entrance and living space in most cases.

If you go a bit older the trees have filled in much more and provide for a somewhat pleasant streetscape:

https://goo.gl/maps/RMUgaXJc8n5ZKVEp8
https://goo.gl/maps/UGwYumqmyEm8ojmc8
Regarding the snout house debate - none of these I would call snout houses.
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  #3991  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Regarding the snout house debate - none of these I would call snout houses.
To me, a "snout house" is one visually dominated by a front garage. Those are borderline but I would probably agree are not true snout houses.
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  #3992  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Our suburbs are shit, but I've never seen anything in Alberta like these infamous examples from Markham and the GTA:



The Dawn of the Dead remake also had a pretty atrocious looking GTA suburb in the intro that I will never forget.

Thank god they have stopped making them like this for the most part. While still not perfect there is a growing trend of building laneways and not making your cars bedroom the focal point of your home.

Here are some examples of how to build suburbs imo.

Markham
Snowmagedden 2011 by aaronjreid, on Flickr

Markham
Bur Oak by Loozrboy, on Flickr

Markham
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.89137...7i16384!8i8192

Catherdral Town, the concept is right but it will take at least 25-30 years to mature and get some character.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.89141...7i16384!8i8192

New Markham or whatever it's called
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.85060...7i16384!8i8192
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  #3993  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:50 PM
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To me, a "snout house" is one visually dominated by a front garage. Those are borderline but I would probably agree are not true snout houses.
These are true snouts to me:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4719...7i13312!8i6656

They're actually pretty nice on the inside. I used to know someone who lived in one them.
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  #3994  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Regarding the snout house debate - none of these I would call snout houses.

I wouldn't consider them snout houses either. The narrow lot with long depth configuration lends itself to snout houses when the garage is in front. By design many Ontario municipalities now discourage that in their Official Plans in favour of wider but shallower lots, plus provisions to ensure the garage doesn't extend too much beyond the front entrance, if at all. The latter also makes it easier to plant street trees as there's greenspace between driveways (probably better for drainage in that respect too).



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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
I take it they live somewhere along the WLRT line?

NW - I'm dating myself as I remember Dalhousie Station opening seeming new...
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  #3995  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:57 PM
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Those Toronto suburbs are not ideal, but they are essentially a few (near-certainly unwelcome) planning tweaks away from being outer London. A few connecting streets and paths and some small shops would give you a thinner-walled Hounslow. Could be worse.
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  #3996  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TorontoDrew View Post
Thank god they have stopped making them like this for the most part. While still not perfect there is a growing trend of building laneways and not making your cars bedroom the focal point of your home.

Here are some examples of how to build suburbs imo.


Markham
Bur Oak by Loozrboy, on Flickr
That is definitely better. Does the corner lot house halfway down the street have a garage on both sides of the corner? How does that function?

Edit: Oh those are just windows. Nevermind.
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  #3997  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:59 PM
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This with a streetcar and some shops, awnings and similar is getting close to city life. Could we be... learning?
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  #3998  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
These are true snouts to me:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4719...7i13312!8i6656

They're actually pretty nice on the inside. I used to know someone who lived in one them.
To steal an Albertan term I'd call those more of "cab over" houses.

Snout house, IMO.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/jVV4dEJcUMNu5LKNA

https://maps.app.goo.gl/8RJ8KFURRzpmGhHV9
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  #3999  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 5:55 PM
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How is this for a snouthouse? Not a single real window on the front of it. Just a fake window above the garage.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9645...7i13312!8i6656
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  #4000  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 6:01 PM
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Thanks for clearing up the idea of 'snout house'. I was looking through some of the posts and questioning whether it meant the same as I thought it did.

But now it's clear.
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