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  #561  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2020, 11:06 PM
danishh danishh is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I found this article where they've asked David Jeanes to assess possible STO terminal locations.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle...ansport-commun
This is interesting. I think if you consider that west Memorial is currently under construction, and LAC could vacate completely when the Ottawa library project is done, there is a possibility of running the slrt down the east side of the bridge, and then along the North side of Wellington. You could even limit access to road traffic along Wellington east of Lyon - local access only. Remember Rideau is blocked off on the east side to private vehicles already. That's also roughly the area the RCMP and heritage probably want most cars out of anyways.

STO could still run buses down the portage and have them go right, to Pimisi, a station built to handle a large base that doesnt yet exist.

the feds would have to agree to all of this.

edit: this https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer....71029855&z=16

Last edited by danishh; Feb 3, 2020 at 11:24 PM.
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  #562  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 1:49 AM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I found this article where they've asked David Jeanes to assess possible STO terminal locations.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle...ansport-commun
Good Day.

English version CBC : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...tion-1.5444712

Quote:
How will the Gatineau LRT connect to Ottawa's LRT?
An expert looks at potential transfer hubs and station locations
CBC News · Posted: Feb 02, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: February 3
As to the options he discusses.....
I have to think he was given the 4 options to 'analyse', and was not permitted to comment on other alternatives,
such as up to and along Sparks St. to Lyon (surface or tunnel), or to Parliament (surface).
A Pity. I do not always agree with him, but he is definitely worth listening to, if allowed to properly proceed.

STO itself mentions that ALL those options are still being discussed and analysed, as they should be.
Whether that is in co-ordination with CityOttawa - we shall see. It should be.

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  #563  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 3:40 AM
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rocketphish rocketphish is offline
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
How will the Gatineau LRT connect to Ottawa's LRT?
An expert looks at potential transfer hubs and station locations

CBC News
Posted: Feb 02, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: February 3




As plans for Gatineau's LRT begin to take shape, there are questions about how the system would connect riders to Ottawa's downtown core.

The Société de transport de l'Outaouais (STO), which confirmed this week it will be developing some kind of light rail system, has so far shared few specifics.

The Portage Bridge is the preferred option, with both city's mayors now cool on the possibility raised in the past of the Prince of Wales Bridge near Bayview station.

It stands to reason the new Gatineau LRT station would have to be built close enough to an existing Confederation Line station so that riders could easily transfer from one to the other.

If the new route went over the Portage Bridge, transfers would likely happen at the Confederation Line's Lyon station.


David Jeanes, an engineer and public transport activist, looked over a few ideas that could be considered for the station for Radio-Canada and gave each location a ranking out of 10.

4. The Portage Bridge exit

There is land on the Ottawa side that is not a heritage site and would be relatively inexpensive to build a station there, according to Jeanes.

However, the location is at the bottom of a slope and nearly 600 metres away from Lyon station, which would make for a more difficult transfer.

There's also recently-revealed plans in the works for a national monument to the federal government's "LGBT Purge" of queer public servants in the area.

Score: 2/10

3. Garden of the Provinces and Territories

A site at Wellington and Bay streets would have enough space for a station, but it would have to navigate the garden, a monument that dates back to 1962, and a soon-to-be-built monument to the victims of communism.

This location is 400 metres away from Lyon station.

Score: 4/10

2. Library and Archives Canada

The site just east of this building offers the most space compared to the other three possible locations.

It's not all that close to a monument or historic site, but it is close to the current STO stop on Wellington Street where commuters can catch a bus into Gatineau.

A station here would be only 200 metres away from Lyon station; however, riders would have to cross busy Wellington Street to get there.

Score: 6/10

1. The intersection of Wellington and Lyon

This location is only 130 metres away from the existing Lyon station, making it the closest option.

However, the train would stop right in front of an important monument dedicated to Canadians who served in the Second World War.

It could be difficult to get permission to build there.

The West Memorial Building at that intersection will be home to the Supreme Court around the time a Gatineau light rail line could be built.

Score: 7/10*

* If the city were to build a pedestrian tunnel that connected this site to the Lyon station entrance beneath the Place de Ville building, Jeanes said he would score this location 8/10.


Official plans in spring

The STO is going over the option and plans to appear before Ottawa's transportation committee in the spring to present the preliminary options.

"I don't want to speculate on what the options will be for getting into Ottawa," Myriam Nadeau, president of the STO, said in French last week. "We are studying them with our partners."

The City of Ottawa isn't sharing many details yet, either.

Ottawa's director of transportation planning provided a written statement that city staff are "working closely with the STO and other regional transportation planning partners," but that it is "too early to comment" because technical evaluations are still underway.

The STO originally raised the possibility a rail line could open in 2028.


With files from Radio-Canada's Stéphane Leclerc

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...tion-1.5444712
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  #564  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 1:12 PM
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Scenario 1 is the most likely option. Any of the other options would terminate the STO train too far from Lyon Station. Add the grade changes between Portage and Lyon, and you have a serious accessibility issue.

Building a new Lyon Station entrance that would directly connect the concourse and the STO station would be highly desirable, but probably won't happen.

The best option would be a tunnel. Considering how much money the City of Ottawa spent to bury its train, our grade separation policies and the visual clutter of overhead wires (though electric trams with no wires now exist), City Hall might demand a tunnel and the Feds might step in and pay for it. If that's the case, it could be built under Sparks Street (cut-and-cover between Bay and Kent). The STO station concourse could have a pedestrian tunnel under Lyon plugging into Lyon Station's concourse.

The STO's tunnel could be extended over the years to Parliament, with a similar concourse-to-concourse connection as Lyon. It could be extended again to the Château Laurier tunnel, with a new station and cross the Alexandra replacement bridge to Gatineau, forming the long desired rail loop around downtown. The Château Laurier Station would not be directly connected to Rideau, but that's a non-issue considering the connections at Lyon and Parliament. Jean Pigott's pedestrian tunnel system connecting the NAC, old Union (Senate will have moved on by then) and the Convention Centre could be built offering an indirect indoor connection to Rideau.
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  #565  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 1:13 PM
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post

STO itself mentions that ALL those options are still being discussed and analysed, as they should be.
Whether that is in co-ordination with CityOttawa - we shall see. It should be.

In her interview the STO President said they would be meeting with Ottawa officials about this very very soon.
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  #566  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 2:14 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Scenario 1 is the most likely option. Any of the other options would terminate the STO train too far from Lyon Station. Add the grade changes between Portage and Lyon, and you have a serious accessibility issue.

Building a new Lyon Station entrance that would directly connect the concourse and the STO station would be highly desirable, but probably won't happen.

The best option would be a tunnel. Considering how much money the City of Ottawa spent to bury its train, our grade separation policies and the visual clutter of overhead wires (though electric trams with no wires now exist), City Hall might demand a tunnel and the Feds might step in and pay for it. If that's the case, it could be built under Sparks Street (cut-and-cover between Bay and Kent). The STO station concourse could have a pedestrian tunnel under Lyon plugging into Lyon Station's concourse.

The STO's tunnel could be extended over the years to Parliament, with a similar concourse-to-concourse connection as Lyon. It could be extended again to the Château Laurier tunnel, with a new station and cross the Alexandra replacement bridge to Gatineau, forming the long desired rail loop around downtown. The Château Laurier Station would not be directly connected to Rideau, but that's a non-issue considering the connections at Lyon and Parliament. Jean Pigott's pedestrian tunnel system connecting the NAC, old Union (Senate will have moved on by then) and the Convention Centre could be built offering an indirect indoor connection to Rideau.
"Might"? It should be a given. Why would the City of Ottawa contemplate anything other than a tunnel? Not just for a pedestrian connection, but for any LRT line crossing into the city. And all of it paid for by others, not by the City of Ottawa (or the Province of Ontario). No tunnel, no train. Very straightforward.
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  #567  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
"Might"? It should be a given. Why would the City of Ottawa contemplate anything other than a tunnel? Not just for a pedestrian connection, but for any LRT line crossing into the city. And all of it paid for by others, not by the City of Ottawa (or the Province of Ontario). No tunnel, no train. Very straightforward.
I agree. I strongly believe the Feds should pay for any STO infrastructure once it hits any of interprovincial bridges. They've made countless regional transit plans over the last 120 years, but never acted on them. It is now time for the Feds to step up and fund a proper (underground) connection between the STO and OC Transpo.
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  #568  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 3:38 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I agree. I strongly believe the Feds should pay for any STO infrastructure once it hits any of interprovincial bridges. They've made countless regional transit plans over the last 120 years, but never acted on them. It is now time for the Feds to step up and fund a proper (underground) connection between the STO and OC Transpo.
Yes ditch the Kettle Bridge idea and concentrate on transit. Hard to see either party agreeing to build a tunnel which seems like the only way the project works.
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  #569  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 3:51 PM
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Yes ditch the Kettle Bridge idea and concentrate on transit. Hard to see either party agreeing to build a tunnel which seems like the only way the project works.
I'm not opposed to the Kettle Island Bridge but I'd so much rather see all that money spent on local public transit projects instead.
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  #570  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:26 PM
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I don't oppose the Kettle Island Bridge to divert truck traffic and reduce trip length between the east end of Ottawa and the east end of Gatineau. It's rather ridiculous that ALL eastenders and ALL truck traffic must drive through downtown to get anywhere in the neighboring city. It could be argued as an environmental concern, as well as the obvious safety concern when considering the truck traffic.

In exchange, the new Alexandra Bridge should not reserve space for personal vehicles. It should only allow bikes, pedestrians and trams.

The Kettle Island Bridge should also include space for pedestrians and cyclists (though pedestrians will be few and far between) along with bus/HOV/electric/hybrid lanes, which could one day be converted to grade separated rail.
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  #571  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 5:43 PM
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A tram line ending up at Lyon Street is just ridiculous, but I know it seems to be the only affordable option. But considering that focus of downtown especially in off-peak hours is at Rideau Station, we are making transit more awkward to use. This is progress? We are actually making connections worse than the much maligned Hull Electric streetcars that travelled from Aylmer to the Chateau Laurier up to 1946. At least, that location connected to the entire Ottawa streetcar network. Certainly downtown bus routes are not focused at Lyon Station, so connections just become too ponderous to get around the city. Too much focus on just the Confederation Line. And further reductions in redundancy.

Shouldn't Ottawa be creating a central transit hub? Even decentralized Toronto has such a hub at Union Station, where GO buses and trains and the YUS subway and Harbourfront streetcar all connect together. We seem to be happy to allow connections to be randomly located based on cost rather than usability. Consequently, we sprinkle major transfer connections across the city to maximize transfers that riders hate.
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  #572  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 6:04 PM
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Too bad they are not looking into sending the tram down Sparks all the way to Elgin. Yes, that section would be slow but does it really matter?
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  #573  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 6:34 PM
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Too bad they are not looking into sending the tram down Sparks all the way to Elgin. Yes, that section would be slow but does it really matter?
Good Day.

STO are indeed looking at it.....it is specified as one of the (admittedly lesser) options
they are looking into after their last round of public presentations and input,
wherein many participant comments was to extend to Parliament or Metcalfe/Elgin.

We have to wait and see what their next public submission/presentation comes to.

FWIW.
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  #574  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 7:28 PM
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Too bad they are not looking into sending the tram down Sparks all the way to Elgin. Yes, that section would be slow but does it really matter?
Not a chance. Under Sparks St, perhaps.
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  #575  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
Good Day.

STO are indeed looking at it.....it is specified as one of the (admittedly lesser) options
they are looking into after their last round of public presentations and input,
wherein many participant comments was to extend to Parliament or Metcalfe/Elgin.

We have to wait and see what their next public submission/presentation comes to.

FWIW.
Past studies suggest that only a one way streetcar will function on Sparks Street.

While it is true that Sparks Street had two streetcar tracks back in the day, towards the end of service in the 1950s, streetcars ran one way on Sparks Street and the other way on Queen Street. Westbound on Sparks and eastbound on Queen.
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  #576  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 7:45 PM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Past studies suggest that only a one way streetcar will function on Sparks Street.

While it is true that Sparks Street had two streetcar tracks back in the day, towards the end of service in the 1950s, streetcars ran one way on Sparks Street and the other way on Queen Street. Westbound on Sparks and eastbound on Queen.
Good Day.

I tend to agree - Sparks St. surface just is not viable IMO.
And BoC subterranean blocks any tunnel furthur than Kent.
(I do not see BoC agreeing to rip themselves up.)

To me, STO LRT along Sparks St. tunnel only as far as to Lyon/Kent, with exits to Sparks,
and underground connecting passages to OC Lyon and PdV is the only reasonable choice.

IMHO.
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  #577  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 8:36 PM
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Too bad they are not looking into sending the tram down Sparks all the way to Elgin. Yes, that section would be slow but does it really matter?
Similarly, if Ottawa and Gatineau could cooperate, I was thinking they could seize the occasion and build a north/south axis. The LRT could go underground (like the Eglinton LRT in Toronto) after the bridge, under Bank, all the way to the Glebe and Lansdowne. People coming from Gatineau or from the south could transfer to the O-train at Lyon or Parliament.
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  #578  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 8:59 PM
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Good Day.
And BoC subterranean blocks any tunnel furthur than Kent.
(I do not see BoC agreeing to rip themselves up.)
IMHO.
How deep is the subterranean section of the Bank of Canada?
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  #579  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 9:22 PM
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How deep is the subterranean section of the Bank of Canada?
Good Day.

Effing Deep.

I have no numbers, but from having worked nearby, I have looked down the ramp from Kent parallel to northside of Sparks,
and looked down the access service shaft that was in the parking lot opposite CDHowe bldg.
By visual and memory comparison, it is at least as deep as the tunnel (IMHO, FWIW).
And the structure extends to the south, under Sparks.
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  #580  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 9:49 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
Good Day.

Effing Deep.

I have no numbers, but from having worked nearby, I have looked down the ramp from Kent parallel to northside of Sparks,
and looked down the access service shaft that was in the parking lot opposite CDHowe bldg.
By visual and memory comparison, it is at least as deep as the tunnel (IMHO, FWIW).
And the structure extends to the south, under Sparks.
Well, that is bad news. This means that it will be very difficult or impossible to tunnel along Sparks Street beyond Lyon.

This brings me back to the interprovincial loop via Booth, Albert and Slater. This would provide a direct connection to the Confederation Line at Pimisi Station and allow service at least to the Rideau Centre with the hope of somehow connecting back to the Interprovincial bridge.
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