Where Is The Rust Belt?

[Steely Dan]

Nevermind.

Too political for this forum.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Can we all at least agree that Northwest Ohio is ugly and that Michigan won the battle for the Toledo Strip by eventually acquiring the Upper Peninsula as compensation?

Northwest Ohio is ugly because of deforestation.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

the small towns in pa/oh/mi at least often still have a manufacturing employer, unlike western Mass or the hudson valley where tourism/second homes for bostonians and new yorkers is the major economic driver. Is a town with one abandoned factory and 3-4 other operational factories "rusty", compared to one that lives off of tourism alone?

The major economic drivers of Western Mass are all the eds, meds, and supporting services for the Knowledge Corridor. 160,000 students, 29 universities, 20 hospitals. There’s also plenty of specialized manufacturing. Smith & Wesson and Colt make all their — here. Pratt & Whitney makes jet engines here. Ensign-Bickford Aerospace make NASA parts here. Gerber makes all of its automated cutting hardware here. Kaman manufactures aircraft here. And every — Yankee Candle ever made.

Metro Springfield is over 700,000 people. The Knowledge Corridor is over 2 million now. Tourism is icing on the cake.

[dc_denizen]

^ that's central mass, not western mass/berkshires.

my contention is that the perceived "rustiness" of parts of OH, PA and MI are just perception, driven by cultural cringe, lack of familiarity, distance, political posturing, and coastal bias. this even extends to landscapes - is vermont really prettier than the driftless area, or are coastal Maine towns really nicer than those on lake michigan? but new yorkers and bostonians who control the culture are more familiar with the former and have political animus towards the inhabitants of the latter

and if you want a real rust belt, check out bridgeport CT.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

and if you want a real rust belt, check out bridgeport CT.

There was this interesting article earlier this year about Youngstown and politics. Basically how there were all these thinkpieces after 2016 about how "Youngstown" had swung to Trump. Only that's not actually true, because Youngstown itself is a majority-minority city which is still heavily Democratic. When people think about "Youngstown" though, they think about the working-class whites who actually live in the suburbs surrounding the city.

Anyway, I grew up right outside of Bridgeport, and actually lived in the North End for a bit over the summers in college (my mom moved out of my home town after I graduated to save some money). It's a really odd place, because after the mills closed there was basically nothing left in terms of jobs, but the surrounding towns were so expensive - and there was a need for low-wage service workers - so it never really had the levels of residential blight you see in the core rust belt. It just transformed into the residential suburb for the working poor of Fairfield County.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

^ that's central mass, not western mass/berkshires.

No, Western Massachusetts includes the Connecticut River Valley and Springfield. The economy, as others have noted, is better than most of interior New England because all the liberal arts colleges (and the flagship state university), plus summer and ski tourism, provide a variety of jobs, many of them good.

Worcester is Central Mass.

[montréaliste]

-Where is the rust belt, baby?

-Oh! Just open your closet door, it's on the hook next to the tie rack, honey.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

^ that's central mass, not western mass/berkshires.

my contention is that the perceived "rustiness" of parts of OH, PA and MI are just perception, driven by cultural cringe, lack of familiarity, distance, political posturing, and coastal bias. this even extends to landscapes - is vermont really prettier than the driftless area, or are coastal Maine towns really nicer than those on lake michigan? but new yorkers and bostonians who control the culture are more familiar with the former and have political animus towards the inhabitants of the latter

and if you want a real rust belt, check out bridgeport CT.

Come on guy, you’re telling the Masshole native that Springfield is Central Mass? Jesus Christ.

Central Mass is Worcester County. Western Mass’s heart is the Connecticut River Valley, aka the Knowledge Corridor. You can get from anywhere in the Berkshires to Springfield in about an hour or less. It’s not a big state.

[lio45]

Seems to me ski options would — that far south (also, I seem to recall elevations in Mass aren't that high). I'm surprised to learn it's a touristic draw - I would have thought that for (downhill) skiing NYCers would drive north to the Adirondacks and Bostonians would drive north into the three northern New England states.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Central Mass is Worcester County.

Originally Posted by craigs

Worcester is Central Mass.

Makes sense...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_County,_Massachusetts

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by lio45

Seems to me ski options would — that far south (also, I seem to recall elevations in Mass aren't that high). I'm surprised to learn it's a touristic draw - I would have thought that for (downhill) skiing NYCers would drive north to the Adirondacks and Bostonians would drive north into the three northern New England states.

New Yorkers ski in Vermont, mostly. The snow is slightly more powdery east of Lake Champlain, and the resorts are far more developed. Most of the overnight shuttles to ski resorts are headed to Vermont.

But Whiteface, in the Adirondacks, is an exception. Whiteface, in terms of skiing alone, is probably best in Eastern U.S.

I assume Bostonians are headed to Maine and New Hampshire, moreso than Vermont. Vermont resorts like Killington and Mt. Snow feel like Long Island North.

[Razor]

in regards to Penn

We drove down the I-81 and was it the 476 to get to Philadelphia?..Can't remember. Anyways, it was hard to gauge how rusty or run down any of the towns off to the side were, but the highway and park areas were well kept, and the scenery was some of the most beautiful I've ever driven through.Wilkes Barre /Scranton didn't seem too bad, but that was from from the highway. We had to drive through Binghamton NY , and it seemed a little run down, but not all that bad really. I've seen equivalent or worse here in Ontario in some of the resource towns.

[lio45]

In this thread I'm now seeing for the first time on SSP an ad for UMass Lowell. Doesn't take long for targeted advertising to pick up on what's being discussed!

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Shawn

The major economic drivers of Western Mass are all the eds, meds, and supporting services for the Knowledge Corridor. 160,000 students, 29 universities, 20 hospitals. There’s also plenty of specialized manufacturing. Smith & Wesson and Colt make all their — here. Pratt & Whitney makes jet engines here. Ensign-Bickford Aerospace make NASA parts here. Gerber makes all of its automated cutting hardware here. Kaman manufactures aircraft here. And every — Yankee Candle ever made.

Metro Springfield is over 700,000 people. The Knowledge Corridor is over 2 million now. Tourism is icing on the cake.

This is one of the tough parts about "rustbelt revival". It takes a long time. 30-40 years of decline aren't undone in 10. While eds & meds is constantly touted in rustbelt cities as evidence of revival, it simply cannot account for the huge employment numbers and wage levels that were once present for many decades from large-scale manufacturing. And "specialized manufacturing" is just positive spin on "small manufacturing".

The economic advances are relative, and they don't fully filter down to the municipal (city and county in the case of Springfield/Chicopee/Holyoke and Hampden) level. Touting broad regional numbers can make things sound a lot better than they actually are. I would say that Springfield is in the category of "resurging Rust Belt cities"... given what's going on in the overall region... with much of that resulting from the Knowledge Corridor initiative since the early 2000s, which you mention. But it's still Rust Belt, and economic indicators from the Fed illustrate that. The area was hit really hard by manufacturing losses and was in a low, low place by the 1990s... it's gonna take some time. For one example (though a majorly indicative one), per capita incomes and poverty levels are still low and high, respectively... still fully at "Rust Belt" city levels.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Razor

in regards to Penn

We drove down the I-81 and was it the 476 to get to Philadelphia?..Can't remember. Anyways, it was hard to gauge how rusty or run down any of the towns off to the side were, but the highway and park areas were well kept, and the scenery was some of the most beautiful I've ever driven through.Wilkes Barre /Scranton didn't seem too bad, but that was from from the highway. We had to drive through Binghamton NY , and it seemed a little run down, but not all that bad really. I've seen equivalent or worse here in Ontario in some of the resource towns.

Thanks for the Pennsylvania compliment and I'm glad you enjoyed your drive, but I-81 to I-476 would definitely not even rank in the top 100 scenic routes through PA.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by lio45

Seems to me ski options would — that far south (also, I seem to recall elevations in Mass aren't that high). I'm surprised to learn it's a touristic draw - I would have thought that for (downhill) skiing NYCers would drive north to the Adirondacks and Bostonians would drive north into the three northern New England states.

you dont need mountains for decent snow skiing.

our cleveland ski resorts are in valleys.

just sayin.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

One other advantage that Southern Ontario has is that it acts as the De Facto "Education Belt" in Canada. London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton, Guelph, Toronto are all within 100 miles of each other and each feature student populations of 40,000+ (except for Guelph). These universities and affiliated colleges are large employers that are relatively recession-proof, and feature large student bodies that like to go to bars and restaurants downtown. Columbus also continues to be a strong rust belt performer in no small part to it's educational presence.

That doesn't really tell you the whole story, though, as, while there are clearly Rust Belt cities and towns sustained by major colleges and universities (State College and Stroudsburg, PA come to mind for me), there are others which are quite rusty despite the presence of a major institution of higher learning (Syracuse, of course, and Binghamton, home to a major SUNY campus, as well as your aforementioned Akron all come to mind), so while having a major institution of higher education in a Rust Belt town can help it withstand the Rust Belt's broader economic forces, especially if that institution historically dominated its economy (as is the case in State College), it is only of limited help in cities that were (ironically enough) more economically diversified at the Rust Belt's early-20th-century height.

Originally Posted by edale

The Lake Erie Islands (Ohio) had 11 million tourists last year. I highly doubt Erie receives even a fraction of that number. Locals probably love the beaches, just like Clevelanders like Edgewater and Euclid beaches, but who's going to freakin' Erie, PA for a lakeside vacation? Between Cedar Point and the islands, Ohio's lake communities are most definitely a greater attraction than Erie.

Presque Island alone averages 4.2 million visitors annually, and tourism in the Erie region is a billion-dollar business with some 16.6k jobs in the sector (as of 2016). Contrary to what you're suggesting, Erie's tourism sector is, in fact, at minimum, an appreciable fraction of the Lake Erie Islands'.

The reason why should be obvious. Presque Isle is the closest beach to Pittsburgh, PA, and environs.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Presque Island alone averages 4.2 million visitors annually, and tourism in the Erie region is a billion-dollar business with some 16.6k jobs in the sector (as of 2016). Contrary to what you're suggesting, Erie's tourism sector is, in fact, at minimum, an appreciable fraction of the Lake Erie Islands'.

The reason why should be obvious. Presque Isle is the closest beach to Pittsburgh, PA, and environs.

Right, the Lake Erie Islands is a popular place, being situated between Detroit and Cleveland, and with Cedar Point there too, they get a bunch of tourism (boating/partying it seems mainly)... which is what I imagine is Sandusky‘a major industry. So it’s kinda funny to have heard him basically claim that Erie (which is obviously much larger presently and historically than Sandusky, and undeniably prime rustbelt) wouldn’t have a sognificant tourism industry. It all stemmed from an Ohioan feeling slighted because Pennsylvania is commonly perceived as a more scenic, more naturally beautiful state, with its rustbelt cities potentially being better situated than Ohio’s to benefit from their natural surroundings.

Pittsburghers and other western Pennsylvanians are a prominent tourist group to the Erie área, but so are people from western NY and northeastern Ohio (because the beaches in Erie are FAR superior than what one can find in their own states) and southern Ontario. All one has to do is take a look at the license plates around Erie in the summertime especially to get.ñ very basic idea of how tourism contributes to the economy in a very rusty city like Erie.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Right, the Lake Erie Islands is a popular place, being situated between Detroit and Cleveland, and with Cedar Point there too, they get a bunch of tourism (boating/partying it seems mainly)... which is what I imagine is Sandusky‘a major industry. So it’s kinda funny to have heard him basically claim that Erie (which is obviously much larger presently and historically than Sandusky, and undeniably rusty rustbelt) wouldn’t have a sognificant tourism industry. It all stemmed from an Ohioan feeling slighted because Pennsylvania is commonly perceived as a more scenic, more naturally beautiful state, with its rustbelt cities potentially being better situated than Ohio’s to benefit from their natural surroundings.

Pittsburghers and other western Pennsylvanians are a prominent tourist group to the Erie área, but so are people from western NY and northeastern Ohio and southern Ontario. All one has to do is take a look at the license plates around Erie in the summertime especially.

The sad thing here is that the southeastern part of Ohio sits on a geological extension of the Allegheny Plateau and has some potential for tourism, especially older towns that sit in fairly narrow valleys like Zanesville. But AFAIK Ohio's tourism industry (as a whole) is more underdeveloped than Pennsylvania's (which is itself underdeveloped relative to e.g. New York's) and, despite having much of Ohio's natural beauty, its southeast is its least densely settled and least developed in terms of tourism assets and infrastructure. IOW there's a noticeable dearth of Jim Thorpes and Ohiopyles in the area and that hampers the development of a tourism industry.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

The sad thing here is that the southeastern part of Ohio sits on a geological extension of the Allegheny Plateau and has some potential for tourism, especially older towns that sit in fairly narrow valleys like Zanesville. But AFAIK Ohio's tourism industry (as a whole) is more underdeveloped than Pennsylvania's (which is itself underdeveloped relative to e.g. New York's) and, despite having much of Ohio's natural beauty, its southeast is its least densely settled and least developed in terms of tourism assets and infrastructure. IOW there's a noticeable dearth of Jim Thorpes and Ohiopyles in the area and that hampers the development of a tourism industry.

I mean, most tourism in these small towns is drawn from nearby metropolitan areas - people looking for day trips or weekend trips relatively close to home.

Where do people in the three big Ohio cities vacation exactly?