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  #341  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 8:10 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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Typically when a Convention Centre are expanded, it's not to add another floor to the existing building, its to add more floor space within the same floor.

So I imagine Vrancor would plan to go over the MacNab terminal and right up to the Church. Another example would be the Winnipeg Convention Centre, which was recently expanded.
Typically, sure. But since this is mostly beat reporters paraphrasing proposals that have yet to be formally articulated, there is room for interpretation. The plan will be more apparent once the details of the proposal are made explicit, at some point following council's Feb 5 in-camera session.

The way the Vrancor proposal is being spoken of now, it sounds like a $200M pool is funding a state-of-the-art arena reno, a new hotel and an extra 50K sq ft of convention centre space. If that's the case, we can expect efficiencies.

Winnipeg's 2015 expansion, for example, cost $180M, which works out to around $195M in 2019 dollars — but since that project added 10 times the square footage Vrancor is proposing (at 43,000 square feet, the street-spanning City Room is 4/5 the size of the entire HCC), we can expect it would come with a fraction of the price tag.

A 2016 report to council weighed two reno options for FOC: a $68M partial upgrade (adding modern boxes and concessions to the lower bowl) or a $252M blue-sky upgrade to NHL-grade venue criteria. Presumably it'd be closer to the first option, but with a bit more razzle-dazzle.

Building a hotel to the specs of the 182-room Homewood Suites would run around $40M, but it's possible that the facility in question is already in the works.

Adjusted for inflation, the HCC cost $47M in 2019 CAD. Expanding it could conceivably represent around half of the $200M, a rational and self-interested investment given that the HCC's primary reason for existing is to fill hotels, of which Vrancor controls most of the downtown hotel universe.
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Last edited by thistleclub; Feb 1, 2020 at 5:21 PM.
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  #342  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 8:17 PM
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  #343  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 8:43 PM
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Love the idea of using that space up top as a "Jurassic Park" style plaza
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  #344  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 9:54 PM
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I also love the idea of turning that area into a Jurassic park style area, only thing is that it would rarely be used.
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  #345  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2020, 12:00 AM
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Doesnt look like hes adding a second concourse for the upper level which all the new arenas have. Guess when you only use the upper level once a month its not really needed.
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  #346  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2020, 12:33 AM
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Doesnt look like hes adding a second concourse for the upper level which all the new arenas have. Guess when you only use the upper level once a month its not really needed.
Where would you put that? At the very top of the upper level? The current concourse is generally where the upper level concourse would be in those new arenas. Those arenas also have club or suite levels in between lower and upper levels. You would need a lower level concourse added about midway up the lower bowl (in order to still have the dressing rooms and service areas under it) and I'm not sure there is the room for that. Ideally the upper concourse would be a few rows up the upper level as well, which allows the space. You would basically need to rebuild the entire building to make that happen I think.
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  #347  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2020, 1:55 AM
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LOVE the entrance from the Jackson Square food court! Opening it up to the mall would be a boon for business especially the food court before & after events! This could finally bring extended hours to parts of the mall instead of most everything closing at 6pm!!!
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  #348  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2020, 1:44 PM
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Where would you put that? At the very top of the upper level? The current concourse is generally where the upper level concourse would be in those new arenas. Those arenas also have club or suite levels in between lower and upper levels. You would need a lower level concourse added about midway up the lower bowl (in order to still have the dressing rooms and service areas under it) and I'm not sure there is the room for that. Ideally the upper concourse would be a few rows up the upper level as well, which allows the space. You would basically need to rebuild the entire building to make that happen I think.
Right on top of the current concourse. Look at an aerial of the arena. It was literally made to stack right on top with cut outs to enter into the upper deck. Right now the upper deck you have to walk down to the lower deck. A stacked concourse on top of the current means you would walk laterally to the new upper concourse from the upper deck.

At other arenas you walk laterally into the upper deck, not up a flight of stairs which begins flush with the lower level. See Pittsburgh’s arena or Quebec City.

See below images courtesy of the spec which show the stackable concourse area.




Last edited by king10; Feb 1, 2020 at 2:26 PM.
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  #349  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2020, 5:25 PM
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Right on top of the current concourse. Look at an aerial of the arena. It was literally made to stack right on top with cut outs to enter into the upper deck. Right now the upper deck you have to walk down to the lower deck. A stacked concourse on top of the current means you would walk laterally to the new upper concourse from the upper deck.

At other arenas you walk laterally into the upper deck, not up a flight of stairs which begins flush with the lower level. See Pittsburgh’s arena or Quebec City.

See below images courtesy of the spec which show the stackable concourse area.
It's been forever since I've been in there so I don't remember it well. I just remember it being the worst arena to get in and out of with that single concourse. But I guess it was the budget way to do things 35 years ago with no guarantee of a pro team. If a new concourse can be built above the current one, that would be ideal. Would also create more washroom and concessions space. Not sure how that fits in the budget or as you said, if even needed given the upper level usage.
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  #350  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2020, 2:49 PM
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Then there were three: New plan rolls in as City of Hamilton weighs downtown venue options
Private sector investors offer millions of redevelopment dollars

https://www.thespec.com/opinion-stor...venue-options/

Just as Hamilton council is set to consider two multimillion dollar redevelopment proposals for its aging downtown venues, a third business group has stepped up to the plate.

The city has received an expression of interest to build a new luxury hotel, state-of-the-art convention centre and potentially a new arena from an investment consortium led by Ancaster-based Pearle Hospitality.

Pearle is best known locally as the owner of the Pearle Hotel and Spa and Spencer's restaurant, both on Burlington's waterfront, and the Ancaster Mill and Elora Mill eateries.

Its proposal lands as council is slated to receive a closed-door staff presentation Wednesday on offers to redevelop the FirstOntario Centre, Hamilton Convention Centre and FirstOntario Concert Hall from the Vrancor Group and Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group.

For its pitch, Pearle is partnering with Society Developments and Ironpoint Capital Management, but the lead role belongs to Pearle president Aaron Ciancone, who happens to be Coun. Lloyd Ferguson's nephew. The director of the project is Aaron Waxman, grandson of the late Chester Waxman, the storied scrap metal magnate and community volunteer.
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  #351  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2020, 4:18 PM
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Wow...I was just talking to someone the other day about my wish for Pearle Hospitality to make a big investment in Hamilton.
I totally get why they've gone with more business friendly places so far, but they do incredible quality work.

Awesome to hear them interested in this huge project downtown. We've got some pretty good players to negotiate with here. Nice to see!
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  #352  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2020, 8:39 PM
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I feel they really need to do something to redesign the rooftop area of jackson square too - it's just not used at all and it's a collossal waste of space. I'd love to see some sort of permanent auditorium put up there or something, or have big festivals there or have gardens etc. - maybe have supercrawl extend up there.
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  #353  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 12:51 PM
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Surprised not to see anything here from yesterday's presentations. The Precinct group one surprised me with the redevelopment of the AGH, and that they are a partner. Not a lot of content I could find on Twitter , including what their actual proposal would be for the former Copps Colosseum . The relocation site for the convention centre I found a bit odd (south end of Hamilton City Centre).

As others mentioned, there looks to be many pieces that should settle out and I am sure announcements that will be made that fill in gaps. Hopefully we will see some concrete steps coming soon that will shape where downtown is going.

Last edited by King&James; Feb 6, 2020 at 9:43 PM.
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  #354  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 1:53 PM
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Link to CBC article...

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5452506?__t...mpression=true

Given the scope of these proposals, we should start a new thread !
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  #355  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 6:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeffery View Post
Where would you put that? At the very top of the upper level? The current concourse is generally where the upper level concourse would be in those new arenas. Those arenas also have club or suite levels in between lower and upper levels. You would need a lower level concourse added about midway up the lower bowl (in order to still have the dressing rooms and service areas under it) and I'm not sure there is the room for that. Ideally the upper concourse would be a few rows up the upper level as well, which allows the space. You would basically need to rebuild the entire building to make that happen I think.
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  #356  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2020, 8:20 PM
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Council keeps next steps of downtown Hamilton arena and convention centre talks under wraps
Two business groups — Vrancor and Urban Precinct Group — make multimillion-dollar pitches to city officials

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9...s-under-wraps/

Two competing business groups have made their multimillion-dollar pitches to city council to redevelop Hamilton's aging downtown sports and entertainment venues.

But the council is keeping quiet about where they might stand and what's next in the process to a revamped arena, convention centre and concert hall.

After huddling in camera to discuss a staff report Wednesday afternoon on the downtown sports and entertainment precinct and other matters, councillors emerged a few hours later to say the details would be kept confidential.

"It's very much alive," Coun. John-Paul Danko, who chaired the marathon general issues committee meeting, offered reporters about pitches to redevelop the city-owned assets.

"We had two very good proposals, and I think the residents of Hamilton should be pretty optimistic about the outcome of that," he said, noting "there may have been direction given to staff" behind closed doors.

Danko said two proposals "seemed to be further ahead" than a third that didn't make a delegation to the general issues committee.

Council's deliberations have been kept secret because the details of each proposal are "very proprietary to each one of those proponents," he said.

"Staff and council need to keep that confidential in order to protect the integrity of the process."

Earlier in open session, the Vrancor Group told councillors about its estimated $200-million proposal to redevelop FirstOntario Centre, expand the convention centre and modernize the concert hall.

The firm, owned by Darko Vranich, and its construction and architectural partners say they will also build a four-star hotel and two office towers at a refurbished FirstOntario Centre.

"So what you've got here really is the dream, which is going to be turned into the plan," project manager Mario Frankovich said.

Vrancor's plan for the arena will enable it to feature different seating capacity to accommodate various events, including Hamilton Bulldogs junior hockey games.

"We see the bones of the arena as a diamond in the rough," Frankovich said, adding the entire project can be done within 12 to 14 months.

Members of the Urban Precinct Group, who followed the Vrancor contingent, told councillors their pitch represents a $500-million investment into the core.

"We will forever fight to see Hamilton fight to achieve its vision as the ambitious city," said group lead PJ Mercanti, who's also CEO of Carmen's Group, which currently manages the convention centre and concert hall.

Urban Precinct Group hopes to redevelop the lower bowl of FirstOntario Centre and feature different seating capacity by employing a curtaining system, lighting and laser technology.

The plan also involves a larger convention centre and updated concert hall at a redeveloped City Centre or another location downtown. It also affords the opportunity to expand the Art Gallery of Hamilton.

The idea is to establish a "coherently planned cultural and entertainment district," said Petra Matar, an architect with DPAI Architecture Inc., which is part of Urban Precinct Group.

Matar also described an urban park and pedestrian thoroughfare in the art gallery area, where three mixed-use residential towers would stand in the south part of the site.

Other members of the Urban Precinct Group are LIUNA Pension Fund, Fengate Capital, Meridian Credit Union, Jetport Inc. and Paletta International.

A third group, Pearle Hospitality — which is known for its Pearle Hotel and Spa and Spencer's eatery at Burlington's waterfront — was scheduled to present its plan to council Wednesday but withdrew its delegation.

The impetus for the private-sector pitches have their origin in a motion by Coun. Sam Merulla that asked staff to source private-sector investors to revamp the three city-owned venues for additional property tax revenue and eliminate taxpayer subsidies.

Danko told reporters a request for proposals wasn't issued in this case because the "scope" of the downtown precinct exercise "was much more open-ended." An RFP would have been more suitable for a specific vision, he said.
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  #357  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 1:46 PM
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  #358  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 2:56 PM
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Hamilton’s duelling arena proposals: Council wants developers to sharpen their pencils
City staff favoured Vrancor but council opts to keep venue process competitive

https://www.thespec.com/opinion-stor...their-pencils/

Up to 120 days.

That's how much time two local business groups competing to redevelop Hamilton's city-owned downtown sports and entertainment venues have been given to sharpen their pencils.

According to sources, councillors have directed city staff to negotiate the best deal possible with the groups and then recommend a preferred proponent to undertake a multimillion revamping of the aging arena, convention centre and concert hall — all without tapping local tax dollars.

After emerging from a closed-door meeting Wednesday night, councillors voted to keep a staff report on the duelling redevelopment proposals confidential.

But The Spectator has learned that staff formally recommended that the city sign a memorandum of understanding with Vrancor Inc., owned by developer Darko Vranich.

However, instead of following staff advice, councillors opted to keep the competitive process alive by continuing to engage with Vrancor and rival proponent Hamilton Urban Precinct Arts and Entertainment Group — but for no more than 120 days.

A third proposal by a consortium led by Ancaster-based Pearle Hospitality was reportedly considered insufficiently advanced to proceed.

Be that as it may, staff's hip checked recommendation to negotiate a memorandum of understanding with Vrancor is hardly surprising, at least based on presentations of the competing plans that took place earlier that day.

Vrancor and Urban Precinct Group — consisting of Carmen's Group, LIUNA Pension Fund, Fengate Capital, Paletta International, Jetport Inc., and Meridian Credit Union — have both submitted confidential term sheets to the city containing financial information and conditions which haven't been made divulged.

But while publicly showcasing Vrancor's $200-million plans, project adviser Mario Frankovich was sharply focused. He highlighted the company's readiness, asserted its ability to deliver a revitalized arena in 12 to 14 months and, perhaps most significantly, promised an end to taxpayer subsidies with no impact on the tax levy.

By contrast, PJ Mercanti and Jasper Kujavsky, speaking on behalf of Urban Precinct Group's $500-million plan, spent too much time talking about the load-bearing capacity of the arena roof and theoretical high rises.

In an interview, Kujavsky defended his consortium as a "solid group of investors" who have the necessary "capital ready to deploy." But that message wasn't clear enough in front of the cameras. It also didn't help that Urban Precinct is looking to the federal and provincial governments for funding help.

In broad strokes, Vrancor and Urban Precinct are both proposing to transform the arena into a modern venue that can be curtained off to host 8,000-seat events and expanded to its full 17,000-seat capacity when needed. Vrancor, however, is also talking about attaching two six-storey Grade A office towers to the facility.

Both groups are proposing relatively modest upgrades to the 2,200-seat concert hall. But they have radically different visions for the convention centre. Vrancor proposes to double its capacity at its current location by going out over Summers Lane, as well as building a supporting hotel nearby.

Urban Precinct wants to build a new convention centre at the site of a redeveloped City Centre (formerly Eaton's Centre) and use the existing location for a mixed-use tower, which could possibly include the Art Gallery of Hamilton.

For its part, Urban Precinct says it's prepared to explore various investment models to get the city out of the entertainment and hospitality business and eliminate or reduce its operating and capital costs at the facilities.

Vrancor, on the other hand, is more explicit. It proposes to fund the arena and concert hall renovations and operate them while leaving the ownership in city hands. It does, however, want to buy the convention centre, as well as pay for its revitalization. Obviously, that's where Vranich sees the return on his investment.

Meanwhile, word that Michael Andlauer is talking to Burlington about a new arena and moving the Hamilton Bulldogs there has added greater urgency to the discussions. As the anchor tenant at FirstOntario Centre, the Bulldogs are key to any revitalizations plans.

But Andlauer is tired of waiting for an arena fix and disgusted with the way his proposal for a new arena at Lime Ridge Mall was dismissed by council. He says he recently spoke to Vrancor, Urban Precinct and Pearle Hospitality. But in the end, he sees all their plans as "conceptual and speculative."

Andlauer says he'll continue to look at Burlington while remaining open to staying in Hamilton. But he wants to see "concrete timelines" and needs to consider the best interests of Bulldogs' fans.
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  #359  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 3:03 PM
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If I had to choose between Vrancor and Urban Precinct Group, I would go with Vrancor as well.

Urban Precinct Group approach is like the 1950/60's approach, demo and rebuild. I'd rather keep what we have and expand on it.

Ideally, it would be great if Urban Precinct Group and Vrancor came together as a group.

The biggest difference/issue I see is the Convention Centre, there's no way Vrancor supports moving the Convention Centre to City Centre as he'll lose his direct connection from Sheraton hotel.
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  #360  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2020, 3:14 PM
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I watched the Vrancor presentation yesterday and their ideal for Copps is to use a curtain to block the upper block. However, the curtain will be narrow as goes up to the ceiling. Kind of hard to describe without pictures kinda looks like inside a circus tent.

The curtain will drape from the upper bowl to the centre of Copps ceiling, making the ceiling look narrow and more intimate.
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