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  #8441  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 1:23 AM
Jougho Jougho is offline
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Originally Posted by s211 View Post
I would like to know what's stopping the governments from going after foreign owners and empty units in co-ops. Why do they get special dispensation?
The difference is that they own shares in a corporation that owns the land (if it is freehold) and the building. The owners are not on title individually.
     
     
  #8442  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:02 AM
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The difference is that they own shares in a corporation that owns the land (if it is freehold) and the building. The owners are not on title individually.
So then go to the root of the corporation, in the same fashion that the province is claiming it will create transparency over who owns corporations.

Don't just pierce corporate veils, but co-op veils also. Am I missing something?
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  #8443  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:29 AM
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these co-ops are all on lease-hold land and therefore own nothing whatsoever.

i certainly hope my tax dollars don't get wasted subsidizing these people.
     
     
  #8444  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:44 AM
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
these co-ops are all on lease-hold land and therefore own nothing whatsoever.

i certainly hope my tax dollars don't get wasted subsidizing these people.
Not all co-ops in the city are on leased land.
     
     
  #8445  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 4:39 AM
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I am surprised that developers aren't using the freehold "co-op" model today. As you mention the foreign buyer and property transfer taxes are avoided. What is also avoided include the empty home tax and the provincial wealth tax on properties over 3M. Operating costs are also reduced dramatically, lower taxes and costs such as heating, hot water, water, cable and Internet can be included in your maintenance fees based on the shares you have in the corporation. You would see overnight a massive change in demand. I know of one co-op in West Vancouver where a friend pays slightly under $300.00 per month with all the costs mentioned included in his fees for his one bed apartment. The complex also has an indoor and outdoor pool, gym with a resident manager/cleaner on site. He does pay an extra $60.0 per month for above ground on site parking. It is a 1960's building in perfect condition with a very pro-active board.
These are pre strata act I’m not sure if they are allowed anymore. They were the way you ran a housing corporation basically with shares and investors before we standardized rules for strata corporations.

And yes some own the land.

Coop units tend to be cheaper because they have one or more of: entrance interviews, leasehold, rent restrictions, age/pet restrictions, require a much bigger down payment, and are harder to get a mortgage on.

Realistically you’d think they’d be a lot more expensive given how you avoid a lot of taxes. I’m not sure if it’s a secret or if foreign buyers are just too small a factor.

I do love them for a lot of reasons. You can actually interview potential owners to the building! That’s a huge plus as if they are too stupid/crazy to pass a 20 minute interview you don’t want them as a neighbour. You can also force someone to sell if they break the rules too often which is much harder to do in a strata. And with no rentals you get a lot more volunteers.
     
     
  #8446  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 4:50 AM
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
these co-ops are all on lease-hold land and therefore own nothing whatsoever.

i certainly hope my tax dollars don't get wasted subsidizing these people.
There are several different types of housing co-op in Vancouver (and the rest of BC). Some provide affordable housing, and while these days their development may be supported through municipal policy (like the Olympic Village co-ops), their operating costs should be covered by the members payments. You can find 110 listed here. There are also market rate co-ops that operate more like a condominium, but with shares rather than a personal ownership of a strata lot. There are several in the city. Very few co-ops (market or affordable) are on leased land - but most of the co-ops in False Creek South are.
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  #8447  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
There are several different types of housing co-op in Vancouver (and the rest of BC). Some provide affordable housing, and while these days their development may be supported through municipal policy (like the Olympic Village co-ops), their operating costs should be covered by the members payments. You can find 110 listed here. There are also market rate co-ops that operate more like a condominium, but with shares rather than a personal ownership of a strata lot. There are several in the city. Very few co-ops (market or affordable) are on leased land - but most of the co-ops in False Creek South are.
Changing City, overall you are right, however there are there are a perhaps a surprising number in the WESTEND on 99 year leases.
     
     
  #8448  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 6:01 AM
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Changing City, overall you are right, however there are there are a perhaps a surprising number in the WESTEND on 99 year leases.
Thanks - yes, as well as about 20 Market Co-ops there are another dozen buildings on 99 year leasehold. They're not co-ops though, because the leaseholder purchases from the owner of the building the right to occupy an apartment for a long term, fixed period. Monthly fees are paid by the lessee to the owner for the maintenance and repair of the building. These fees cover regular building maintenance and taxes and thus are not considered to be rent. They're mostly from the 1960s, but one is from 1950, so still has 29 years left to run. Presumably if the owner doesn't want to redevelop, the leases can be offered again once the lease runs out. Some of them are big buildings, although I don't know how they'd perform in an earthquake, given the era they were built in. More details.
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  #8449  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 6:49 AM
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Thanks - yes, as well as about 20 Market Co-ops there are another dozen buildings on 99 year leasehold. They're not co-ops though, because the leaseholder purchases from the owner of the building the right to occupy an apartment for a long term, fixed period. Monthly fees are paid by the lessee to the owner for the maintenance and repair of the building. These fees cover regular building maintenance and taxes and thus are not considered to be rent. They're mostly from the 1960s, but one is from 1950, so still has 29 years left to run. Presumably if the owner doesn't want to redevelop, the leases can be offered again once the lease runs out. Some of them are big buildings, although I don't know how they'd perform in an earthquake, given the era they were built in. More details.
Yep, government gets good PR for maintaining old affordable rental buildings and blocking demolition. Government gets bad PR after the earthquake for maintaining old deathtraps that collapsed and killed our city's poor.
     
     
  #8450  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 7:04 AM
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Yep, government gets good PR for maintaining old affordable rental buildings and blocking demolition. Government gets bad PR after the earthquake for maintaining old deathtraps that collapsed and killed our city's poor.
Eh? None of the 99 year leasehold buildings are owned by the government - they're all privately owned. And the people who live in them aren't poor. They're only slightly cheaper than condos to acquire a leasehold interest.
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  #8451  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 7:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
Thanks - yes, as well as about 20 Market Co-ops there are another dozen buildings on 99 year leasehold. They're not co-ops though, because the leaseholder purchases from the owner of the building the right to occupy an apartment for a long term, fixed period. Monthly fees are paid by the lessee to the owner for the maintenance and repair of the building. These fees cover regular building maintenance and taxes and thus are not considered to be rent. They're mostly from the 1960s, but one is from 1950, so still has 29 years left to run. Presumably if the owner doesn't want to redevelop, the leases can be offered again once the lease runs out. Some of them are big buildings, although I don't know how they'd perform in an earthquake, given the era they were built in. More details.
Thank you Changing City, your knowledge is apprieciated and admired.
     
     
  #8452  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 7:51 AM
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Thank you Changing City, your knowledge is apprieciated and admired.
Thanks - not everyone would agree. In this example, thank the internet search engines! I didn't know the details until I looked them up, although I had looked at one of those 99 year lease places to buy in, The El Cid, as it seemed very reasonably priced. Then I realised why that was true.
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  #8453  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 8:03 AM
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Not all co-ops in the city are on leased land.
i am well aware of that, but weren't we talking about south false creek? where the large majority are on CoV owned land.

as long as they are charged the fair market rate for that land, i will be happy. but don't go around subsidizing them with tax dollars. enough of that gets wasted as it is.
     
     
  #8454  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
Thanks - not everyone would agree. In this example, thank the internet search engines! I didn't know the details until I looked them up, although I had looked at one of those 99 year lease places to buy in, The El Cid, as it seemed very reasonably priced. Then I realised why that was true.
Oh Golly! I know of one sweet building.
     
     
  #8455  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:04 PM
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
these co-ops are all on lease-hold land and therefore own nothing whatsoever.
Yes they do own something. It's called a leasehold interest, in comparison to freehold interests on non-leased land.
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  #8456  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 5:47 PM
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The white paper is worth reading. My two cents, it's pretty fair in its options for co-ops and finally seems to demonstrate understanding on the City's part that Co-Ops' freed-up financial room resulting from paying off their original CMHC mortgages has already been reallocated to self-fund the subsidy for low income members now that CMHC has wholly withdrawn from supporting low income housing.

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Lease renewal scenarios

1.Basic renewal: A co-op pays the City a slightly discounted ground rent on an annual basis with limited reporting requirements.

2.Renewal with additional grant: A co-op pays the City a slightly discounted ground rent on an annual basis (i.e. Basic renewal), and receive an additional grant to provide deeper affordability based on incomes of the co-op’s members. This scenario requires greater reporting requirements to ensure City subsidies target low to moderate income households.

3.End of lease: As a last resort and the City’s least preferred scenario, a co-op may opt not to renew its lease. Should this be the scenario pursued by the co-op, the City will work with that co-op to protect its members and work to identify a new building operator as quickly as possible.

Redevelopment scenario

4.Redevelopment: The City is interested in working with co-op housing partners to increase the number of co-op homes on City-land. Should the City decide that a particular site meets certain criteria, including poor building conditions and/or unused development potential, the City may opt to work with an individual co-op to explore the potential redevelopment of the site to increase the number of affordable co-op homes. The City and the co-op agree on a new lease for the new building.
Some stream of consciousness thoughts on Co-Ops (having grown up in one in False Creek South): Co-Ops are intentional non-profit communities that provide thousands of moderately priced, subsidized, and deeply subsidized homes and a tremendous sense of community and belonging. They are individually self-governing and have extraordinarily low operating costs because members perform all but the most technical tasks (e.g. Co-Op members manage their own budget and external reporting, all of which are externally audited annually, they perform all grounds keeping and normal routine maintenance, and leverage buying power for routine and major purchases).

When CMHC founded most of these Co-Ops in False Creek South in the late 70s and early 80s, they prepaid the leases to the City based on the rates it set at the time. CMHC also provided mortgages to the Co-Ops for their buildings. Since that time, Co-Ops have been paying off the CMHC mortgages, which are interest bearing and comparable to commercial mortgages in their rates and terms, paying property taxes to the City, and self-funding all operating costs and maintenance (including the 90s gift of condo-rot full building envelope replacement).

Co-Ops set their housing charges (rent) based on their budget and individual members fall into "market", "shallow (self) subsidy", or "deep subsidy" based on how 30% of their income falls in line with the Co-Op budget divided by households. With a range of incomes, this means that those paying "market" housing charges, which is in excess of the per-household cost of operating the Co-Op provide an internal subsidy to those on "shallow subsidy". This model ensures that the Co-Op is affordable to a wide range of incomes and that there is no need for outside support for those who cannot afford to pay the "market" rates. This whole process is also wholly anonymized and it is a first principle of Co-Ops to keep income and subsidy information extraordinarily confidential and to have no outward signs of income disparity (e.g. there aren't certain units reserved for market vs shallow subsidy members).

Next is "deep subsidy". This is for members whose income falls below the CMHC poverty line. Historically, CMHC provided an annual grant to Co-Ops to make up the difference between the self-financing "shallow subsidy" amount and the amount associated with 30% of income for the low income members. This amount would vary over time with need, but CMHC would still only need to subsidize the increment between shallow subsidy and the deep subsidy amount. CMHC viewed this as the absolute best "bang for your buck" method for providing affordable housing since it (a) maintains the dignity of low income people and ensures they are fully integrated into the community; (b) is cost effective for CMHC since there's no need to fund the ancillary parts of typical affordable housing, like an housing operator's overhead or extensive case management staffs and oversight; and (c) it avoids the moral hazard of people becoming dependent of social programs since the recipients of deep subsidy are essentially excluded from the whole process, as they just pay their housing charges to the Co-Op based on 30% of their income and aren't penalized at all as their incomes rise or fall based on their circumstances.

As the Co-Ops pay off their CMHC mortgage, they take on the responsibility of providing this deep subsidy using the freed up financial room. At the Co-Op I grew up in, where my mother still lives, the Co-Op decided to shift new membership criteria to increase the proportion of members on deep subsidy to fully redeploy the freed up financial capacity gained from paying off their mortgage.

Where I'm going with all this is that Co-Ops in False Creek South are a highly functional, low cost way to have a range of incomes live in the city and to provide deeply affordable housing without external subsidy. With that said, the value of the City land on which the Co-Ops are located has changed dramatically over 30+ years, in no small part, I might add, as a result of the success of the urban redevelopment experiment of False Creek South, of which Co-Ops are an approximately 1/3rd part. I have no issue with the City renegotiating the lease terms to bring them in line with market rates and I think the City's proposed approaches all have merit.

Option 2 is, I think, the most fair. It recognizes that when the City accepts anything less than market rates, that constitutes a subsidy. The City is prepared to provide such a subsidy on the below-market households in a Co-Op, which will require regular financial reporting and auditing of the Co-Ops. This is no different than what CMHC required. Member income information was always verified and anonymized in reporting and the Co-Op would be audited annually by a major accounting firm (E&Y, PWC, Deloitte, etc.) at the Co-Op’s expense. Furthermore, the City is proposing a phased ramp for the new ground lease, which I think is eminently fair. Additionally, the requirement that household size correlates appropriately (e.g. having a single person household in a 3 bedroom unit, whose kids are now grown and have left home, move to a one-bedroom when one becomes available) is already common practice and I think formalizing this is appropriate.

Even though a new lease was always expected by Co-Ops, such a fundamental change in their financial obligations will significantly increase the costs borne by Co-Op members. They have been following the rules set out when the City and CMHC negotiated the original lease and now with CMHC out of the picture, it is up to the City and Co-Ops to negotiate a new deal. Whatever the change, it will result in higher housing charges for the market rate members, and this may push some to shallow subsidy, jeopardizing this self-financing model. I expect that originally CMHC expected Co-Ops to use the freed up financial room from their mortgages being paid off to pay the new lease to the City (either pre-paid through financing or on an annual basis). What has changed was that CMHC has withdrawn entirely from affordable housing and the deep-subsidy grant that CMHC contributed to Co-Ops has now been shifted to Co-Ops and uses up the freed-up financial room from the mortgage being paid off.

In light of this change, there’s no way that the freed-up financial room can be expected to both pay a new lease with the City and fully fund all deep-subsidy costs. I think the City (finally) understands this conundrum. For the longest time there was a disconnect on the City’s part (“but your mortgage is paid off, you have the money now to pay a new lease.”) but years of skilled and dedicated good faith negation on the part of both parties has resulted in an understanding that the freed-up mortgage room cannot cover a market rate ground lease and self-fund low-income housing.

There's no way to know how this will shake out until the City puts some lease numbers on the table for the Co-Ops to consider, but these scenarios for that negotiation are now on the table, which is good. Short of just charging members more, Co-Ops may consider increasing the total number of units through renovation (where possible) to divide a larger 3 or even 4 bedroom suite into several smaller suites, but this will greatly compromise the ability of Co-Ops to provide family-friendly homes, and will likely torpedo the enrollment of False Creek Elementary. Alternatively, and most pragmatically, is redevelopment.

I am aware that several Co-Ops are actively looking into partial and/or even complete phased redevelopment to both increase the unit count and provide accessible suites, since many of the original buildings are walk-up stacked townhouses that lack wheelchair accessibility. The City sounds like it is aware of this and supportive in principle. This would increase the total unit count while also expanding the breadth of household types that the Co-Op can accommodate. The cost of such a major investment would be tremendous and the Co-Ops would need much longer lease terms from the City to be able to secure commercial lending to undertake such a project and repay it through a new mortgage.
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Last edited by SFUVancouver; Jan 30, 2020 at 6:28 PM.
     
     
  #8457  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 6:00 PM
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Thanks - not everyone would agree. In this example, thank the internet search engines! I didn't know the details until I looked them up, although I had looked at one of those 99 year lease places to buy in, The El Cid, as it seemed very reasonably priced. Then I realised why that was true.
The one that always jumps out at me is Ocean Towers and it's not affordable at all. By virtue of location I suppose.

[IMG]ocean towers by whatnextyvr, on Flickr[/IMG]
Credit REW

https://www.rew.ca/buildings/8584/ocean-towers-vancouver-bc
     
     
  #8458  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 6:04 PM
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The white paper is worth reading. My two cents, it's pretty fair in its options for co-ops.
Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. It appears that there will be a satisfactory outcome to the current situation, and we may even see some redevelopment with additional units generated. I'm expecting someone to argue that these are prime sites that the City should sell off (no doubt for condo towers) and replace the co-ops 'somewhere cheaper'. Building on the legacy already established will, in my opinion, be a better outcome. I recall seeing an interview with Larry Beasley, the former Director of Planning, that his one regret for the area was that the initial densities were so low. I have mixed feelings about that, because those townhouse projects have matured wonderfully, although they weren't too promising when they were first built nearly 50 years ago



[source: False Creek South Neighbourhood Association]
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  #8459  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 7:19 PM
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The one that always jumps out at me is Ocean Towers and it's not affordable at all. By virtue of location I suppose.

[IMG]ocean towers by whatnextyvr, on Flickr[/IMG]
Credit REW

https://www.rew.ca/buildings/8584/ocean-towers-vancouver-bc
I myself am guilty of interchanging them but technically a lot of the "co-ops" we refer to as "co-ops" are housing corporations that are run similar to "co-ops". Housing corporations don't subsidize anyone and are an early form of strata corporation. You buy in and your income doesn't matter.

Thats one reason why Housing Corporations are usually much better maintained. For many of the Co-ops in False Creek I doubt they have been doing any major repairs because in the end they probably didn't plan to be around after the renewal date. I'm against leaving most of those Co-ops around because they visibly look like they are near collapse. We talk about reducing the cost to renew the lease...but I suspect they don't even have the money to do the major exterior repairs they desperately need.
     
     
  #8460  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
The one that always jumps out at me is Ocean Towers and it's not affordable at all. By virtue of location I suppose.

[IMG]ocean towers by whatnextyvr, on Flickr[/IMG]
Credit REW

https://www.rew.ca/buildings/8584/ocean-towers-vancouver-bc
This building is interesting. I have friend who had a client looking at buying into this building. She was ultimately denied by the board because she had a teenage daughter - even though she was a judge! Also at that time, the units had to be paid for in cash - no mortgages could be taken ensuring an exclusive ownership. Not sure if this is still the case
     
     
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