Shift: London's Rapid Transit Initiative

[haljackey]

Not to worry... that money will be spent in Toronto instead, plus whatever contract cancellation fees and lawsuits arise.

#forthepeople

[GreatTallNorth2]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Hamilton LRT project was being 100% funded by the province and under the banner of Metrolinx, who is basically the GTA's transit agency. London's BRT in contrast is an initiative of the city of London and is being funded by all three levels of government. Kitchener's LRT is the same structure as London's project. I would be furious as a resident of Hamilton, but basically the Ford government is saying Hamilton's transit project is no longer a part of Metrolinx. If Hamilton wants the LRT, they have $1 billion from the province and can get the rest from the feds and their city budget and then they can pay for the operating themselves. They are still in a much better situation than London as we got about $150 million or so total from the province.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Hamilton went all NDP during the provincial election, not that its right but Ford seeing the ballooning price tag of their LRT project, and decided to pass. Not worth the cost for limited/no political gain for Ford.

London's BRT has been completely bungled from the beginning. Went BRT instead of LRT, got rid of the underpass of the CP tracks, planned to eliminate general travel lanes for the BRT lanes. Unfortunately the NIMBY asshats in the north end made enough of a stink to kill the segment, and make the whole plan half-baked.

[jaradthescot]

Hamilton's LRT price tag didn't balloon. The Ford government included 30 years of capital costs and maintenance (most of which Hamilton would pay) versus the initial capital costs (that the province was paying for) to make it seem that way. Dishonest bookkeeping, but that's par for the course from Ford. https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-won-t-...apped-hamilton-light-rail-line-1.4734459

[tyeman200]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Hamilton went all NDP during the provincial election, not that its right but Ford seeing the ballooning price tag of their LRT project, and decided to pass. Not worth the cost for limited/no political gain for Ford.

London's BRT has been completely bungled from the beginning. Went BRT instead of LRT, got rid of the underpass of the CP tracks, planned to eliminate general travel lanes for the BRT lanes. Unfortunately the NIMBY asshats in the north end made enough of a stink to kill the segment, and make the whole plan half-baked.

And now those same NIMBY asshats are complaining that they need better transit in their area

[jammer139]

Mayor Holder announced today the goal of having LTC bus fleet all EV. Given the price premium for EV buses vs Diesel/Hybrids has come down considerably this is a good goal. As the fleet is replaced incrementally with annual purchases all new buses should be EV's. In 25 years all the buses will be EV's.

[Djeffery]

The Mayor said on the radio afterwards that buses have a 10 year lifespan, so he thinks this can be done in about 10 years if federal and provincial funding allows. I found that a little surprising, in that they used to routinely keep those things rolling past 25 years. 25 might be too long, but do they really replace them around 10 now?

[jammer139]

Based on this report from US the useful life of large buses is 12 years. Often transit authorities keep them longer.


https://www.transitwiki.org/TransitWiki/images/6/64/Useful_Life_of_Buses.pdf


I believe I heard the LTC has over 225 buses now. Meaning you would have to buy 22.5 new buses each year over 10 years to replace the entire fleet. Assuming each EV bus costs $1M you need to spend over $22M per year in capital acquisition budget.



Is this consistent with the current LTC budget or a major change?

[TallerIsBetter]

While electric busses might be a cost benefit in the future I strongly suspect that will be a lot further down the road than many are wishing. To do this early/first for woke viture signaling points is irresponsible management.

Also the scientific truth is if London or every city on the face of the planet changes to electric busses if will NOT change the temperature of the planet. Sorry, but if you don't get that you either don't understand or are denying the science.

Also I have concerns about using child slave labour in Cobalt mining in Africa that appears to be a currently unavoidable part of the EV supply chain.

[haljackey]

That's only the existing fleet. You'd have to add adding capacity for the growing city, plus the BRT buses.

And then there is the cost of infrastructure. You need places to charge the buses, and quickly if they are out all day. You might get 3h of operational life max before a charge is required, or swap buses to a fully charged one somewhere along the route.

[jammer139]

Current EV buses appear to get around 200 miles of range depending on temps based on this article.


https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2...harge-new-flyer-byd-proterra-beb/577954/


Would that cover an entire day of service in the LTC on most routes?

[Djeffery]

I would suspect they would roll EV buses out to the morning and afternoon peak service, where the buses go out and come back after a few hours and then go out again early afternoon for a few hours. They can charge in the meantime. They can leave the diesel buses on the longer service hour routes until they get to the point where they have replaced the peak service fleet numbers, and hopefully as technology improves over a few more years, the charging will be a lot quicker, and the amount of power the batteries store is also higher.

Many buses park at the mall terminals for 10-15 minutes at a time as well, I wonder what kind of charge can go into a bus battery in that time? Enough to replenish enough for the next trip around the route? I wouldn't think it would be enough to complete a trip around the route, but maybe several times with those short charges in a shift might be enough to make the difference of if the bus could do a full day or not.

[DavefromSt.Vital]

10 minutes is enough:

https://winnipegtransit.com/en/major-projects/electric-bus-demonstration/

[jammer139]

Winnipeg is an terrific test given the extreme cold.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by TallerIsBetter

While electric busses might be a cost benefit in the future I strongly suspect that will be a lot further down the road than many are wishing. To do this early/first for woke viture signaling points is irresponsible management.

Also the scientific truth is if London or every city on the face of the planet changes to electric busses if will NOT change the temperature of the planet. Sorry, but if you don't get that you either don't understand or are denying the science.

It's amazing how people jump to conclusions with no real knowledge of the topic. Transit authorities are quickly going electric in a lot of places, not because of "virtue signaling" but because lifecycle costs are lower. It's the same reason that delivery vans, garbage trucks, school buses and police motorcycles, etc. are also going electric. There are use cases where electrification makes a lot of sense. Actually, most of those use cases are eminently more sensible than have an electric personal vehicle that does nothing for ~ 22 hrs per day.

Starting now, gives London time to analyze and build up the necessary infrastructure, recruit personnel needed to maintain these things, etc.

[Truenorth00]

All that talk of BRT and electric buses is great. But how about something basic like implementing Presto. London could probably get the province to pay for the conversion to Presto. Would be a lot more useful to have the same card as most other transit agencies in Ontario.

[haljackey]

I don't see the London public supporting Presto.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I don't see the London public supporting Presto.

Why not? I would think having payment media in common with the rest of the province is a bonus. Especially when there's consideration about extending GO service to London or possibly upgraded VIA services/HFR, bolstering traffic between the GTA and London. I would bet there's also plenty of residents in London who have Prestos because they travel to the GTA often enough.

[ssiguy]

Electric buses are a great idea for London.

Indianapolis just became the first city in NA to have it's new BRT as purely electric and many cities are going the same way. People, when they think of electric, often think of only the environmental benefits but there is much more than that. Electric buses are much quieter both inside and out, have far faster pickup on the level of LRT, have lower operational costs due to fuel savings and due to the batteries can be charged overnight when Hydro rates are at their lowest unlike catenary LRT or trolleys, and maintenance costs are much lower just as battery cars are.

Lower operational costs, better performance, lower maintenance costs, environmental benefits, more pleasant transit experience, better for pedestrians and the community, less visual pollution that LRT & trolleys...………………..it would be a great move for London.

[Truenorth00]

Electric buses are great. Cost is the barrier. Due to climate and the suburban form, Canadian cities usually need the higher end electric buses, which are in the $1.3-1.5 million range. And there's the infrastructure costs. Need to build charging infrastructure at depots and en route if necessary.

The upside is low operating cost. Not just fuel costs. But a lot less maintenance and a longer service life for most of these buses.

The balance strongly favours electric buses. And some busmakers are offering to lease the battery to help accomodate the higher capital costs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastianbl...easing-with-200-million-credit-facility/

Proterra is like the Tesla of electric buses. Except, actually more reliable....