Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

What I find really ridiculous is that when they do a road widening from 2 to 4 lanes or in the case of the Queensway from 3 to 4 lanes, capacity doubles or increases by a third. The Confederation Line should have opened with at least 50% capacity from the Transitway from day 1. Trains might have often run half empty but what better way to attract ridership than people thinking this was a roomy, comfortable way to go.

We have to stay within budget. This is the mantra of the Watson regime. The budget also forced bus service cuts to coincide with LRT opening.

The end result of staying within budget has produeced a substandard replacement of the old Transitways.

The only conclusion that can be made is that operating the trains is actually more expensive than the buses, especially when considering the number of times replacement service has been implemented.

I fully expect that there will be legal action concerning missed payments to RTM and RTG.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

We have no idea what is causing the wheels to stop rotating.

The statements were that the wheels were not rolling, leading to scraping along the rails without rolling.
Thus making a flat spot, which would then have to be ground out. This also helps generate the smoke reported.

So.... do we have
faulty wheels that flat out too easily, creating a non-rolling wheel, or
roller bearings that are seizing up and freezing a wheel, generating an additional fault of a flat spot, or
faulty bogies that cannot support the wheelsets and bearings, or
........

We have no fault cause reports, only fault result reports.

Standing By ...........

Flat spots beget larger flat spots due to rolling problems, and rolling problems create control problems when the control system usually counts wheel rotations as part of position knowledge and accident avoidance efforts.

[daud]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We have to stay within budget. This is the mantra of the Watson regime. The budget also forced bus service cuts to coincide with LRT opening.

The end result of staying within budget has produeced a substandard replacement of the old Transitways.

The only conclusion that can be made is that operating the trains is actually more expensive than the buses, especially when considering the number of times replacement service has been implemented.

I fully expect that there will be legal action concerning missed payments to RTM and RTG.

Honest question...

Does RTM even want this maintenance contract? If they didn't, substandard performance would be a great way to get booted from the job. Apparently something similar in Edmonton happened.

I guess what I am getting at is if we are cheapening out at every corner, and they are doing the same to adhere to a bottom line and nothing is working out, maybe they are perfectly content getting shown the door.

Whatever is going on, its a bad situation. I only hope the weather is the main culprit, that they can learn and adjust and that once the weather warms, there is some reprieve for all parties to take a breath and the city can work towards a functioning system.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Flat spots beget larger flat spots due to rolling problems,

True. I suspect the flat spots were originally created by excessive use of sand during braking. Sand is used to increase traction on icy rails. Unfortunately it is also abrasive and if the wheels lock up, will wear a flat spot as they slide over the sand (no different to you getting a flat spot on your tires when locking up the wheels in your car). I suspect they will need to adjust the amount of sand they use. Starting to slow down for stops sooner will help.

and rolling problems create control problems when the control system usually counts wheel rotations as part of position knowledge and accident avoidance efforts.

I'm not convinced that this is really a concern. I believe they primarily use a combination of GPS and trackside marker to locate the position of the train. There are many other reasons not to use a train with flat wheels though.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by daud

Honest question...

Does RTM even want this maintenance contract? If they didn't, substandard performance would be a great way to get booted from the job. Apparently something similar in Edmonton happened.

I guess what I am getting at is if we are cheapening out at every corner, and they are doing the same to adhere to a bottom line and nothing is working out, maybe they are perfectly content getting shown the door.

Whatever is going on, its a bad situation. I only hope the weather is the main culprit, that they can learn and adjust and that once the weather warms, there is some reprieve for all parties to take a breath and the city can work towards a functioning system.

It is appalling to me that the City openly blames RTG for service problems. If the intent of engaging a third party contractor to run the line was that they would pass the buck when there were problems, then they should have put that right in their RFP. To me, that is indicative of a huge culture issue at the City (and I've seen them take the same approach with other issues like road reconstruction.)

Where we are talking about an area of City responsibility like transit, there should be no difference between the City engaging a contractor or running things itself - it is ultimately accountable for the final result. It's about time that someone calls them on that.

It may not be the worst thing if RTG bows out. At least Watson and Manconi will have one less party to blame.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by daud

Honest question...

Does RTM even want this maintenance contract? If they didn't, substandard performance would be a great way to get booted from the job. Apparently something similar in Edmonton happened.

I guess what I am getting at is if we are cheapening out at every corner, and they are doing the same to adhere to a bottom line and nothing is working out, maybe they are perfectly content getting shown the door.

Whatever is going on, its a bad situation. I only hope the weather is the main culprit, that they can learn and adjust and that once the weather warms, there is some reprieve for all parties to take a breath and the city can work towards a functioning system.

Good Day.

Honest answer.......durn solid question.

This is exactly why I personally and professionally have always had a problem with accepting minimum bid contracting - everybody cheaps out all around.
Unless the contract oversight is intensive and rock solid.

Not that taking the second lowest bid is necessarily better - they have to be 10% close,
or the contract issuer should take a good solid second look at the contract requirements and the resultant bids all around. (<cough> T-Line <cough>)

Within 10%, please please please take the second lowest bid. It pays.

As for waiting for late spring..... that's a long time away !

<sigh>

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

It is appalling to me that the City openly blames RTG for service problems. If the intent of engaging a third party contractor to run the line was that they would pass the buck when there were problems, then they should have put that right in their RFP. To me, that is indicative of a huge culture issue at the City (and I've seen them take the same approach with other issues like road reconstruction.)

Is that problem unique to Ottawa? Politicians like to take the credit for things that go well, and divert the blame when things don't. That is a pretty universal attribute in the world of politics.

The reality is RTM doesn't really care about politics or blame. All they care about is making money, which admittedly is hard to do if you aren't getting paid.

It may not be the worst thing if RTG bows out. At least Watson and Manconi will have one less party to blame.

Meh. RTM will get some sort of golden handshake. A new skapegoatcompany will come in. Get a great contract because no one wants the job. They will fail. lather rinse repeat.

[Kitchissippi]

If Alstom wants to sell more Citadis Spirits in North America it better get on with making sure ours get working properly. The order for additional trans and the ones for Metrolinx should be withheld until the issues are addressed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If Alstom wants to sell more Citadis Spirits in North America it better get on with making sure ours get working properly. The order for additional trans and the ones for Metrolinx should be withheld until the issues are addressed.

Haha. Instead Alstom will merge with Bombardier, and unless Ontario buys from Siemens

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Haha. Instead Alstom will merge with Bombardier, and unless Ontario buys from Siemens

Or Bombardier and Alstom can band together again and produce a vehicle together.

That worked out... Okay in Montreal.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Haha. Instead Alstom will merge with Bombardier, and unless Ontario buys from Siemens

Bombardier and Alstom are talking about doing a deal to build trains.

Bombardier in Talks to Combine Rail Unit With Alstom
Bloomberg
Aaron Kirchfeld, Myriam Balezou, Nabila Ahmed and Eyk Henning
Bloomberg
January 21, 2020

(Bloomberg) -- Bombardier Inc., the embattled Canadian train and plane maker, is exploring a combination of its rail business with French rival Alstom SA, according to people familiar with the matter.

The two companies have held preliminary talks about a rail deal in the past few months, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the discussions are private. Representatives for Alstom and Bombardier declined to comment.

Bombardier rose as much as 4.9% in trading in Toronto Tuesday. The shares were up 4.1% at 3:11 p.m., giving the company a value of C$3.13 billion ($2.39 billion).

The latest considerations between Bombardier and Alstom could face antitrust scrutiny, and there’s no certainty they will lead to a transaction, the people said. A rail deal is among several options the Canadian company is exploring to stabilize its portfolio, which also includes business jets, they said.

The deliberations started before Bombardier shocked the market last week by warning of disappointing fourth-quarter sales, according to the people. Bombardier also said at the time that it may exit a joint venture with Airbus SE that makes the A220 jetliner and potentially take a major writedown. Bombardier shares dropped as much as 39% on the news, a record decline.

China Competition

A takeover of Bombardier’s rail business by Alstom would mark the latest attempt by some of the world’s biggest trainmakers to counter growing competition from China. Bombardier in 2017 held talks to combine its rail operations with competitor Siemens AG until the German company suddenly opted to pursue a deal with Alstom.

The European Union then in February 2019 blocked the Franco-German merger, which would have created a European rail champion, after regulators refused to cave in to warnings about the looming threat of Chinese competition.

While historically best known as a manufacturer of metro, commuter and regional trains, Bombardier has collaborated in high-speed projects including Alstom’s high-speed TGV.

$6 Billion Investment

The potential end of Bombardier’s involvement in A220 manufacturing, combined with new stumbles in the company’s rail business, have undermined a once-great name in manufacturing -- just when investors thought they were poised to reap the rewards of a difficult turnaround effort. Walking away from the A220 would close the book on Bombardier’s work on an aircraft program in which the company invested more than $6 billion.

The negative earnings announcement could hamper efforts to reach a deal with Alstom, weighing on the estimated value of the Canadian company’s rail operations or spurring both firms to focus on their own separate businesses, the people said.

Bombardier in 2015 sold a 30% stake in its Berlin-based train business to pension fund Caisse de Depot et Placement du Quebec, valuing the unit at $5 billion at the time and helping the firm raise capital as it faced a cash drain from delays for its new jets. Before that, it had considered an IPO of the rail unit.

Learjet, Challenger

Were Bombardier to exit both rail and the A220 project, control of which it ceded to Airbus in 2018, its operations would be confined to manufacturing corporate aircraft under the Learjet, Challenger and Global brands.

The company sold its turboprop business to Longview Aviation Capital Corp. for $300 million in a deal completed last year, while Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. agreed to buy the CRJ regional jet arm for $550 million in June.

(Updates with share price in third paragraph)

--With assistance from Scott Deveau, Geraldine Amiel, Jan-Henrik Förster and Siddharth Philip.

To contact the reporters on this story: Aaron Kirchfeld in London at [email protected];Myriam Balezou in London at [email protected];Nabila Ahmed in Davos at [email protected];Eyk Henning in Davos at [email protected]

To contact the editors responsible for this story: Daniel Hauck at [email protected], Elizabeth Fournier, Christopher Jasper

For more articles like this, please visit us at bloomberg.com

Subscribe now to stay ahead with the most trusted business news source.

©2020 Bloomberg L.P.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer

Bombardier and Alstom are talking about doing a deal to build trains.

They already collaborated (not necessarily by choice) on Montreal's Azur trains.

But a merger would be wild.

[OCCheetos]

Today on CTV the mayor talked about the "14th" train and how it "doesn't have enough hours" which they were "promised by December 31st".

At this point I'm really confused.
We've seen all 34 vehicles out in service. CBC and Joanne Chianello seem pretty adamant (on Twitter) that there were only ever 15 trains (i.e. 30 vehicles) so what the hell is going on?

[Brannwagon]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Today on CTV the mayor talked about the "14th" train and how it "doesn't have enough hours" which they were "promised by December 31st".

At this point I'm really confused.
We've seen all 34 vehicles out in service. CBC and Joanne Chianello seem pretty adamant (on Twitter) that there were only ever 15 trains (i.e. 30 vehicles) so what the hell is going on?

That's what I'm wondering as well. While there's been some, I don't think there's been nearly enough scrutiny as to the status of each and every trainset (i.e. how many are being rotated through revenue service, how many (if any) are still not ready for revenue service, etc.).

Manconi was adamant that the switch from 15 to 13 trainsets for peak service was a result of reduced demand, not an issue with train availability or ability for the system to handle more than 13 trains at once. As far as I know, based on the City's messaging, we have 17 trains ready to go on a normal day (with at most 13 in service and the remaining 4 on standby). Well today there were 8 trainsets on the tracks (rumoured to be 7 just before morning peak) for revenue service. Does that mean that within a couple of days more than half of the 17 trainsets came down with wheel/compressor issues? I suspect not, and that we've never had 17 trains ready all at once, or at least not on a consistent basis.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Brannwagon

That's what I'm wondering as well. While there's been some, I don't think there's been nearly enough scrutiny as to the status of each and every trainset (i.e. how many are being rotated through revenue service, how many (if any) are still not ready for revenue service, etc.).

Manconi was adamant that the switch from 15 to 13 trainsets for peak service was a result of reduced demand, not an issue with train availability or ability for the system to handle more than 13 trains at once. As far as I know, based on the City's messaging, we have 17 trains ready to go on a normal day (with at most 13 in service and the remaining 4 on standby). Well today there were 8 trainsets on the tracks (rumoured to be 7 just before morning peak) for revenue service. Does that mean that within a couple of days more than half of the 17 trainsets came down with wheel/compressor issues? I suspect not, and that we've never had 17 trains ready all at once, or at least not on a consistent basis.

There has been frequent discussion at official levels of getting a 14th train into service and even a 15th train (as originally planned) to reduce crowding, but every indication is that this was never achieved. This does say something about train availability ever since testing was done last summer and it was first reported that only 13 trains were 'needed'. So, what is the real number of trains in operational condition?

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

They already collaborated (not necessarily by choice) on Montreal's Azur trains.

But a merger would be wild.

Yes they did. But that was a one off and now they are talking about a long term deal. Possibly even a complete take over of Bombardier's train division by Alstom. A merger would be wild and would have to get by anti-trust regulators.

[swimmer_spe]

You think ones the LRT is build it will be problem free? Talk to Torontonians.

https://www.narcity.com/news/ca/on/toron...O_vfrFVyzyei99J2izx7DvRhP-kUDHc7NTpPRbE0

[phil235]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Is that problem unique to Ottawa? Politicians like to take the credit for things that go well, and divert the blame when things don't. That is a pretty universal attribute in the world of politics.

The reality is RTM doesn't really care about politics or blame. All they care about is making money, which admittedly is hard to do if you aren't getting paid.

Not just an Ottawa problem, but I do think there is a more fundamental issue that is being ignored. And I'm not just talking about politicians here - I'm referring to the public servants. Cities are collecting taxes to provide services. Whether they choose to provide those services themselves or outsource them, the responsibility still goes back to the City. Here the City is trying to outsource its accountability in a very naked fashion, and that's a problem.

I've seen several instances in the past few years where the City re-directs residents to outside contractors to deal with problems that are squarely a City responsibility. Outsourcing is a way of getting things done, but it should not be a way for City staff (not just politicians) to wash their hands of responsibility for the level of service being provided.

[lrt's friend]

Switch problems this morning. I believe we have 11 trains in service today.

O-Train Line 1: Trains are alternating tracks between St-Laurent and Tremblay due to a switch problem. Travel times will be a few minutes longer at that location. Service continuing between Blair and Tunney’s Pasture.

[Uhuniau]

Starting to wonder if the wheel-wear issue might not be related to the track geometry because holy schmoley the trains are suddenly taking the curves at Hurdman even slower than they already were.