Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That was for surface transit, where both BRT and LRT are limited to 6,000 pphpd or less. Underground, LRT can jump up to 15,000 due to longer trains; BRT can't even do bi-artics without a wider, more expensive tunnel.

I explained how BRT capacity can match LRT in other posts. And street level BRT or LRT is not limited to 6000. Maybe you're thinking of systems mixed with traffic.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logan5

I explained how BRT capacity can match LRT in other posts. And street level BRT or LRT is not limited to 6000. Maybe you're thinking of systems mixed with traffic.

When and where? The previous conversation makes a lot of assertions with little data or numbers; with a wider tunnel, napkin math gives 5,000 max (250 passengers/bi-artic x 20 bi-artics/hour), and even that would likely be too narrow for a tri or quad-artic at high speeds. Rails can support a wider, longer vehicle and therefore, without street constraints, can carry much more people.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

When and where? The previous conversation makes a lot of assertions with little data or numbers; with a wider tunnel, napkin math gives 5,000 max (250 passengers/bi-artic x 20 bi-artics/hour), and even that would likely be too narrow for a tri or quad-artic at high speeds. Rails can support a wider, longer vehicle and therefore, without street constraints, can carry much more people.

Based on this data, the minimum headway and maximum current vehicle capacities, the theoretical maximum throughput measured in passengers per hour per direction (PPHPD) for a single traffic lane is some 90,000 passengers per hour (250 passengers per vehicle, one vehicles every 10 seconds). In real world conditions TransMilenio holds the record, with 35,000 – 40,000 PPHPD with most other busy systems operating in the 15,000 to 25,000 range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries_XDE60
max seating capacity for a XDE60 is 59 seats. Our Enviro500 has 55 just on the upper deck.

I suppose Biartics would reach the same/similar seat capacity- though biartics are even less standard than double-deckers, and they can't fit in the current bus loops. So I guess there is some logic to it, even though they could still improve frequency on these long distance routes and get better capacity.

Originally Posted by logan5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

And the Broadway Study actually doesn't use biartics for its BRT option due to the need for wider roads than easily available on Broadway. https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...tudy_Phase_2_Alternatives_Evaluation.pdf

It also listed a 30% increase in capacity for using biartics. Note that frequency is 2min as well. Maybe you could add engines at the back for finer turn control though. Not much room for capacity improvements without passing lanes and wider tunnels. This blog post shows why it's so low. https://voony.wordpress.com/2012/11/09/bus-capacity-some-remarks/

Eventually you may as well build Skytrain.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logan5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

Analysis reveals that TransMilenio only makes it work by using platooning, passing lanes and sub-stops... and runs into delays frequent enough to protest about. People are already concerned about the complications of 75-second headways, let alone 13.

Even assuming your AI is able to handle 4-5 buses a minute without error, a bus-sized 4-lane tunnel is going to have a much higher capital cost than a train-sized 2-lane tunnel, and 13 buses a higher operating cost than 1 train.

[logan5]

You said 6000 ppl was the limit and I showed you that is not even close to the case. Platooning is perfectly fine, especially when you have driverless technology. You don’t need ultra long buses to match rail capacity. And I’m not sure where you got 4 lanes from.

[nname]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

My daughter was stuck in that commute to day - 1 1/2 hours instead of 20 minutes. She watched the attendants with their hi tech de-icers (hockey sticks) and wondered the same about airplane de-icing fluid

De-icing fluid are used at train doors at some stations. I saw them at Production, Lafarge, and another station that I can't remember.

But they would have to hold the train in order for them to use that, so probably not ideal for every stop.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logan5

You said 6000 ppl was the limit and I showed you that is not even close to the case. Platooning is perfectly fine, especially when you have driverless technology. You don’t need ultra long buses to match rail capacity. And I’m not sure where you got 4 lanes from.

6,000 is the limit for North America, having neither enough drivers at a cheap-enough rate to run 500+ buses/route/hour, nor a self-driving bus capable of going faster than 12 km/h, nor a need to when grade-separated automated trains do the job just fine and scale up much easier.

Bogota's BRT functions at that level partly because they've got two lanes each direction so that vehicles can skip-stop or otherwise pass each other, which is a definite requirement for your tunnel. They're also building several rail replacements ATM because the buses are overcapacity and unreliable and so more people are driving again.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

6,000 is the limit for North America, having neither enough drivers at a cheap-enough rate to run 500+ buses/route/hour, nor a self-driving bus capable of going faster than 12 km/h, nor a need to when grade-separated automated trains do the job just fine and scale up much easier.

Bogota's BRT functions at that level partly because they've got two lanes each direction so that vehicles can skip-stop or otherwise pass each other, which is a definite requirement for your tunnel. They're also building several rail replacements ATM because the buses are overcapacity and unreliable and so more people are driving again.

And Bogota is using — bi-articulated buses with a capacity of 270 people each on top of their fleet of articulated buses. Even with jamming 1685 buses on the main trunk line, their BRT is seriously overcrowded, and coupled to the reliability issues with their bus fleet, and issues with crime, it has lead to riots in the past. They are long past needing something like an actual metro rail system to handle the capacity.

[Aroundtheworld]

Ok, so as someone who has actually been to been to Bogota and seen the Transmilenio, let me clarify a few things:

• Most corridors run along the centre of highways and take up 4 lanes to allow for passing, giving the system extra capacity
• The system does not have signal priority where there are intersections
• Overcrowding is a huge problem and they are currently building their first metro line
• The capacity problem is not just due to a lack of metro. It is also due to the fact that the BRT network has hardly been expanded in the last decade.
• Though Transmilenio was shut down during the recent protests, it was not one of the reasons why people protested.

[logan5]

I thought those time of arrival signs at bus stops worked off of gps tracking? First it says 4 minutes down to 2 minutes over a 16 minute span, then jumped to 5 minutes. Down to now arriving after 10 minutes. Then jumped to 8 minutes. That’s when everybody started walking.

It’s maddening that even when the roads are clear and no snow falling, Translink is still crippled.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Even assuming your AI is able to handle 4-5 buses a minute without error, a bus-sized 4-lane tunnel is going to have a much higher capital cost than a train-sized 2-lane tunnel, and 13 buses a higher operating cost than 1 train.

4 buses a minute is one every 15 seconds. You'd never be able to get the dwell times down that low at your busiest stops, so you'd have to start building parallel unloading bays to deal with it. That's a sure sign that you're pushing the technology too far.

[logan5]

Or platoon 4 buses. That’s the great thing about driverless technology, and why brt will be able to match rail transit

[Migrant_Coconut]

KISS principle. Four platooned autonomous buses is basically a train, but with more cost, 4x the maintenance and less capacity (nobody can stand between cars). Best of luck pitching that one to TransLink.

[officedweller]

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/buses-stuck-vancouver-granville-street-bridge

[WarrenC12]

It always amazes me how bad the trolley buses are in snow. Don't other snowy places use them? Is it the tires we use here?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Bottom line, Vancouver doesn't get enough snow in the year to justify swapping out every bus with snow tires... and you just know that Jordan Bateman or one of his friends'd be waiting to jump in and rant about TransLink "wasting" money on tires that only get used once or twice a year.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

KISS principle. Four platooned autonomous buses is basically a train, but with more cost, 4x the maintenance and less capacity (nobody can stand between cars). Best of luck pitching that one to TransLink.

When we are talking about billions of dollars for transit systems, it is extremely foolish not to explore other options. Advancing technology is presenting alternatives to expensive rail transit.

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by logan5

Or platoon 4 buses. That’s the great thing about driverless technology, and why brt will be able to match rail transit

I don't know why you are so obsessed with automated buses when skytrain is already driverless. You don't need a complicated, expensive, and unproven driving AI when a pair of rails do the same thing: guide the vehicle along preset path.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logan5

When we are talking about billions of dollars for transit systems, it is extremely foolish not to explore other options. Advancing technology is presenting alternatives to expensive rail transit.

Such as a Hyperloop? Maybe PRT or straddle buses? Disruptive technology doesn't change math or physics, especially when it's not disruptive and it's just reinventing the wheel but worse.