Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Wouldn't having more cross-overs also reduce the average speed of the trains over the entire line? It seems that the trains run quite a bit slower where ever their is a cross-over.

It depends on the gauge of switch used (larger switches cost more and take up more space, but allow faster trains). If they are close to stations, where trains are travelling slowly anyway, it doesn't matter.

[J.OT13]

Random thought: the fallen "O" beacons/"Lifesavers"/#lollistops at Lyon Station have not been replaced.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Wouldn't having more cross-overs also reduce the average speed of the trains over the entire line? It seems that the trains run quite a bit slower where ever their is a cross-over.

The trains have to slow down to switch tracks, but do they need to slow down if they are just going straight on the same track?

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

The trains have to slow down to switch tracks, but do they need to slow down if they are just going straight on the same track?

Good Day.

Switches and diamonds both involve speed restrictions due to the inherent instability of crossing over loose rail (points, leads) and open gaps (frogs). Light rail vehicles are more susceptible to the instability (getting pushed and bumped about) than heavy (mainline) vehicles (VIA trains) due mostly to sheer size/weight/inertia differences.

As well, the sharpness of the switch restricts speed. A #4 switch (yards, service spurs, slower, cheaper) is shorter but sharper than a #20 switch high speed line crossover (longer, smoother, faster, costlier). So a 4 has to be slower than a 20 when crossing.

As you note, just going straight is just going straight, but some speed restriction is still required due to the noted instabilities.
(of note, this factor is what led to the two VIA derailments in 2010 (St.Charles de Bellechasse, east of QuebecCity), and 2011 (Toronto), wherein the engineer expected to be going straight, and so was travelling faster than the lesser limit for crossing, thus derailing. (I was on the Quebec train. ))

Of interest, some few lines operate locations wherein the switch literally 'bends' rail; the switch machine pulls/pushes a full weight/profile length of lead rail into position at the point of choosing straight or turn, eliminating the looser points of a classic switch. This leaves only the minor gap at the 'point', and the gap of the frog, allowing a faster transit of the switch. These are generally very high number turnouts.

EnJoy!

[TransitZilla]

^ Cool thanks!

[J.OT13]

I asked to see if O-Train Fans could add the number of entrances, fare gates and fare machines to the "Station Facts". Shane said he'd look into it this month.

Here's what prompted this request: when my partner and I went to BC last September, we noticed that many Skytrain stations (particularly the Canada Line) were quite congested due to the lack of entrances and fare gates. Over the Holidays, I found DailyHive Vanocuver articles listing the number of fare gates per station and thought it would be great for O-Train Fans.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-fare-gate-numbers

I find that the O-Train network has plenty of fare gates and fare machines at all stations. This is one aspect that was very well done IMO.

Another great aspect we've touched on are the double elevators everywhere that does not have other redundancy built in (such as the ramp at uOttawa). I have yet to see that anywhere else (granted I haven't done a whole lot of traveling). Notwithstanding the "historic" elevator at Blair.

In terms of entrances and vertical circulation, it all seems pretty adequate thus far as from what I can tell. The only exception might be Parliament's two elevators down from street level to the concourse. An additional two would be beneficial.

Anyone have thoughts or comments?

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I find that the O-Train network has plenty of fare gates and fare machines at all stations. This is one aspect that was very well done IMO.

I agree. All the station entrances have multiple fare vending machines. I was in Montreal recently, and the typical station entrance had one (1) machine, with lineups of several minutes.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I asked to see if O-Train Fans could add the number of entrances, fare gates and fare machines to the "Station Facts". Shane said he'd look into it this month.

Here's what prompted this request: when my partner and I went to BC last September, we noticed that many Skytrain stations (particularly the Canada Line) were quite congested due to the lack of entrances and fare gates. Over the Holidays, I found DailyHive Vanocuver articles listing the number of fare gates per station and thought it would be great for O-Train Fans.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-fare-gate-numbers

I find that the O-Train network has plenty of fare gates and fare machines at all stations. This is one aspect that was very well done IMO.

Another great aspect we've touched on are the double elevators everywhere that does not have other redundancy built in (such as the ramp at uOttawa). I have yet to see that anywhere else (granted I haven't done a whole lot of traveling). Notwithstanding the "historic" elevator at Blair.

In terms of entrances and vertical circulation, it all seems pretty adequate thus far as from what I can tell. The only exception might be Parliament's two elevators down from street level to the concourse. An additional two would be beneficial.

Anyone have thoughts or comments?

Redundant elevators seem to be a very recent development. The TTC is trying to add them to key stations, and Vancouver is supposed to get them with the Broadway subway according to a rendering for how Broadway-City Hall will integrate with the Canada Line

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

A FYI referring to OC-Transpo and RTG/RTM-Alstom :

https://www.octranspo.com/en/ready-for-rail/designed-with-you-in-mind/the-o-line#OLine_01-08-2020

Test Trains , January 8, 2020

OC Transpo has begun testing the new Trains that will be brought into service as part of the Stage 2 Project. The trains will be tested on the Confederation line in the evenings and on weekends and will have no impact on normal operations. The test trains are clearly marked as Not in Service. These trains may stop at stations but will not pick up customers.

EnJoy!

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I asked to see if O-Train Fans could add the number of entrances, fare gates and fare machines to the "Station Facts". Shane said he'd look into it this month.

Here's what prompted this request: when my partner and I went to BC last September, we noticed that many Skytrain stations (particularly the Canada Line) were quite congested due to the lack of entrances and fare gates. Over the Holidays, I found DailyHive Vanocuver articles listing the number of fare gates per station and thought it would be great for O-Train Fans.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-fare-gate-numbers

I find that the O-Train network has plenty of fare gates and fare machines at all stations. This is one aspect that was very well done IMO.

Another great aspect we've touched on are the double elevators everywhere that does not have other redundancy built in (such as the ramp at uOttawa). I have yet to see that anywhere else (granted I haven't done a whole lot of traveling). Notwithstanding the "historic" elevator at Blair.

In terms of entrances and vertical circulation, it all seems pretty adequate thus far as from what I can tell. The only exception might be Parliament's two elevators down from street level to the concourse. An additional two would be beneficial.

Anyone have thoughts or comments?

The stations that struggle the most with fare gates TVMs are Blair, St. Laurent and Rideau. Blair has only two TVMs and 4 gates, and can get congested at both. St. Laurent has 5 gates and 2 machines in each direction, but since the sides are split, the machines on the westbound side can get busy. Rideau has lots of gates on each side, but only 2 TVMs on the mall side, which is much busier than the William side. These two machines can get a lineup at busy times.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Catenary

The stations that struggle the most with fare gates TVMs are Blair, St. Laurent and Rideau. Blair has only two TVMs and 4 gates, and can get congested at both. St. Laurent has 5 gates and 2 machines in each direction, but since the sides are split, the machines on the westbound side can get busy. Rideau has lots of gates on each side, but only 2 TVMs on the mall side, which is much busier than the William side. These two machines can get a lineup at busy times.

I could see how these spots could face such issues.

For Blair, I feel like the City/OC focused too much on the suburban transfers, which resulted in the retention of the old elevators, the one entrance from the mall side and the relatively few fare gates and TVMs. I honnestly didn't think it would be so busy that it would cause issues (other than the single elevator).

For St-Laurent, I hadn't thought of how the westbound platform's role as the "starting point" for many commuters would mean congestion issues to use the TVM, but now that you mention it, it makes a lot of sense.

For Rideau, I just assumed there were more two TVMs per entrance considering this is probably the busiest station on the system in terms of consistency throughout the day (no rush, just a consistent flow of shoppers, students, workers, tourists and other). Lyon and Parliament have an enormous amount of TVMs, why not Rideau?

On O-Train Fans, David Bellerive pointed to vertical circulation issues at uOttawa's eastbound platform:

I'd argue the eastbound platform at uOttawa is maybe the "worst" in terms of flow on the network. If you are coming from the west-end (Barrhaven, Kanata, etc.), Rideau Centre and other places west, you have only one, tight staircase to get off the platform, facing traffic in the other direction too. Then, you have to go through the gates, back up the ramp or stairs outside the station and access wherever you want to go on Campus.

The number of fare gates seems adequate for uOttawa station as a whole, but getting on the east platform can be awful, especially at busier time. Ironically, the emergency exit underpass on the south end of the platform would be the perfect way to offset some of those difficulties, but it seems like it will never be used as such. I think the staircase is limited by the actual configuration and space available at uOttawa, but can probably help explain why a good part of the door issues happen at this station.

https://www.otrainfans.ca/forum/topic/405-station-circulation/?do=findComment&comment=1871

My response:

uOttawa is one of only two stations I haven’t visited since Line 1 opened. The other being Cyrville, and I doubt there are any circulation issues over there 😄.

uOttawa, being one of the busiest stations, circulation issues on the eastbound platform should have been a reasonably predictable issue. I understand that with the budget and space available, configuration options were limited however, one thing that could have been done within a similar budget is a second underpass at the south end of the platform connecting to Marion.

As you’ve suggested, opening up the emergency exit, either as an exit only (hard to control) or with three faregates on the south end of each platform, could help with the congestion issues.

https://www.otrainfans.ca/forum/topic/405-station-circulation/?do=findComment&comment=1872

[Luisito]

How has the train been working out? Are people satisfied with the service?

[Uhuniau]

The congestion after the fare gates at uOttawa is baaaaaaaddddd.

Here, and possibly at some other pinchy staircases, some social engineering might be in order. ("Keep to the right" signs; hell, reversible peak-period lanes?)

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by Luisito

How has the train been working out? Are people satisfied with the service?

I'm not. Semi-retired casual user here (2 - 3x per month). Moved to my current location to be on the transitway so I could take transit or walk instead of driving everywhere. I also represent seniors in this complex who cannot walk more than 200m and who moved here because of the excellent bus service.

The train complicates everything because now the bus service is so poor. And the train doesn't go very many places useful. Like a grocery store.

Stage 2 will help a lot. But we were promised that Stage 1 would solve the transit issues for people. It hasn't. It has created transit issues for seniors in my building who wanted to continue to age at home so moved to live where there was bus service to things like grocery stores, banks and pharmacies.

My husband and I took a HUGE hit in service since we lost our local bus that takes us to shopping and doctor's appointments. We are still fit enough to walk to the grocery store but the bus is no longer useful for that so if we have a heavy load, we drive.

Until Stage 2, we are actually choosing to drive more than we used to. While the construction was happening downtown, it always made sense to transit down there. Now, since we usually go evenings and weekends, driving and parking is faster, reliable and cheaper. Even if only one of us is going.

So we lost useful local service. We lost convenient one-bus trip to downtown. Bus connections from Tunney's can involve long, cold, waits at times or insane crowds at other times. Our local bus to/from there is cancelled regularly. Sometimes becoming a ghost bus, entering Tunney's but never continuing on to our place despite the GPS telling us it was coming.

Because Tunney's is the start point for so many routes, there is no GPS service to tell us when the next bus will come. At least that's what has happened to me when I start texting the 560 number while on the train.

You can't plan how to get home when you get off the train because you don't know which bus will actually show up. To complicate matters further, we have to choose between bus stops that are quite a distance from each other.

In October, OC Transpo extended another local route to offer some replacement service for what we lost, but only every 2 hours. The trip planner didn't have the schedule for that route until into December and the paper schedule never had the times at all for our part of the route. I knew it was infrequent (4x per day, once every 2 hours) but now it has been cancelled completely in the January update to the system.

So, no, I'm not happy with the LRT. And that's not even commenting on reliability, or the fact that the 560 system no longer works, or the trip planner is crap. The trip planner wasn't working again today. I was actually concerned our local bus had stopped running on Saturdays but then found reference to Saturday service. It is just the trip planner that won't offer me trips on it.

Our car-free daughter has also taken a huge hit. She also lives on the transitway (on purpose since she's chosen to live car-free) and her 45 min single bus to us is now bus/train/bus assuming things are working well. She's doing it with a double stroller so the elevator at Blair is a challenge for her often.

So, no, not happy with the LRT. I might be in 5 years. But I don't expect to be happy for 5 years. From where I sit, the system is currently focused on only serving commuters from the suburbs. That's a worthy goal, but for those who live within the urban area and want to use the bus for living, not commuting, the loss of service has been a shock.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

I'm not. Semi-retired casual user here (2 - 3x per month). Moved to my current location to be on the transitway so I could take transit or walk instead of driving everywhere. I also represent seniors in this complex who cannot walk more than 200m and who moved here because of the excellent bus service.

The train complicates everything because now the bus service is so poor. And the train doesn't go very many places useful. Like a grocery store.

Stage 2 will help a lot. But we were promised that Stage 1 would solve the transit issues for people. It hasn't. It has created transit issues for seniors in my building who wanted to continue to age at home so moved to live where there was bus service to things like grocery stores, banks and pharmacies.

My husband and I took a HUGE hit in service since we lost our local bus that takes us to shopping and doctor's appointments. We are still fit enough to walk to the grocery store but the bus is no longer useful for that so if we have a heavy load, we drive.

Until Stage 2, we are actually choosing to drive more than we used to. While the construction was happening downtown, it always made sense to transit down there. Now, since we usually go evenings and weekends, driving and parking is faster, reliable and cheaper. Even if only one of us is going.

So we lost useful local service. We lost convenient one-bus trip to downtown. Bus connections from Tunney's can involve long, cold, waits at times or insane crowds at other times. Our local bus to/from there is cancelled regularly. Sometimes becoming a ghost bus, entering Tunney's but never continuing on to our place despite the GPS telling us it was coming.

Because Tunney's is the start point for so many routes, there is no GPS service to tell us when the next bus will come. At least that's what has happened to me when I start texting the 560 number while on the train.

You can't plan how to get home when you get off the train because you don't know which bus will actually show up. To complicate matters further, we have to choose between bus stops that are quite a distance from each other.

In October, OC Transpo extended another local route to offer some replacement service for what we lost, but only every 2 hours. The trip planner didn't have the schedule for that route until into December and the paper schedule never had the times at all for our part of the route. I knew it was infrequent (4x per day, once every 2 hours) but now it has been cancelled completely in the January update to the system.

So, no, I'm not happy with the LRT. And that's not even commenting on reliability, or the fact that the 560 system no longer works, or the trip planner is crap. The trip planner wasn't working again today. I was actually concerned our local bus had stopped running on Saturdays but then found reference to Saturday service. It is just the trip planner that won't offer me trips on it.

Our car-free daughter has also taken a huge hit. She also lives on the transitway (on purpose since she's chosen to live car-free) and her 45 min single bus to us is now bus/train/bus assuming things are working well. She's doing it with a double stroller so the elevator at Blair is a challenge for her often.

So, no, not happy with the LRT. I might be in 5 years. But I don't expect to be happy for 5 years. From where I sit, the system is currently focused on only serving commuters from the suburbs. That's a worthy goal, but for those who live within the urban area and want to use the bus for living, not commuting, the loss of service has been a shock.

What a damning assessment. It shows how progressive and flexible the Transitways were that is now lost with rail and how we did not compensate for the loss in flexibility by improving frequency for connecting service. We have been told that transfers are good for us but we have not made transfers easy.

One thing that can be faced at the big transfer stations is the flood of passengers exiting the trains that block passengers going down the stairs to access the train going the opposite way. I saw this on my very first trip. And I also experienced bus transfers made difficult when possible routes weren't even at adjacent stops.

At least Sue has some hope after 5 years or so with Phase 2, but still the last mile problem remains and rapid transit is designed (by necessity) to skip access to local services as she described. I have experienced this myself in a completely different part of the city. Local grocery stores, pharmacies, banks, doctor's office either become inaccessible or are much longer walks. Total loss of convenience and the need to drive to most everything. In my location, my local bus route does not take me to any useful destination. Everywhere requires transfers and in the case of downtown, now two transfers. Frequency is terrible. It was much better 20 years ago but there have been round after round after round of service cuts since then. No wonder ridership has not been growing for years. Bah!!!!

[Luisito]

That's unfotunate. I hope things improve.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What a damning assessment. It shows how progressive and flexible the Transitways were that is now lost with rail and how we did not compensate for the loss in flexibility by improving frequency for connecting service. We have been told that transfers are good for us but we have not made transfers easy.

One thing that can be faced at the big transfer stations is the flood of passengers exiting the trains that block passengers going down the stairs to access the train going the opposite way. I saw this on my very first trip. And I also experienced bus transfers made difficult when possible routes weren't even at adjacent stops.

At least Sue has some hope after 5 years or so with Phase 2, but still the last mile problem remains and rapid transit is designed (by necessity) to skip access to local services as she described. I have experienced this myself in a completely different part of the city. Local grocery stores, pharmacies, banks, doctor's office either become inaccessible or are much longer walks. Total loss of convenience and the need to drive to most everything. In my location, my local bus route does not take me to any useful destination. Everywhere requires transfers and in the case of downtown, now two transfers. Frequency is terrible. It was much better 20 years ago but there have been round after round after round of service cuts since then. No wonder ridership has not been growing for years. Bah!!!!

With Phase 1, they did a piss poor job at transfers. Hopefully after a year of running, they come out with a new schedule that fixes the issue. Things like staggering the arrival of buses and more trains per hour could go a long way to reduce these issue. Maybe they will build more accessways to transfer between bus and LRT.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

With Phase 1, they did a piss poor job at transfers. Hopefully after a year of running, they come out with a new schedule that fixes the issue. Things like staggering the arrival of buses and more trains per hour could go a long way to reduce these issue. Maybe they will build more accessways to transfer between bus and LRT.

I am fit enough to walk not only the 300m that are part of the OCT standards, but further if necessary. We often walk from Tunney's because it is faster. On our way to Tunney's we could walk to Westboro and take a transitway bus but that is an 8 minute walk and, in the middle of the day, transitway buses just don't feel as frequent as they used to be. If I have to wait 10 minutes, then walking to Tunney's would have been faster.

There were 4 (now 3) buses we can take. But the three local buses each run roughly every 30 minutes, and are all clustered together so if you miss the last one in a cluster when coming off the train, then you have to wait about 20 minutes for the next one. I can walk home in 20 minutes.

On the way to Tunney's it is a 6 minute walk between the 2 stops so I have to commit, it isn't just a matter of taking the first bus to show up.

I figure all of this is part of Ottawa Health's fitness initiative!

Again for me, it is mostly inconvenient, because I can easily walk distances. For the seniors here, it is devastating as they deal with isolation and increased costs due to Ubers (and taxis for the one who doesn't have a smart phone.) One has given up her bus pass (senior rate) and puts that money towards Ubers.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

I am fit enough to walk not only the 300m that are part of the OCT standards, but further if necessary. We often walk from Tunney's because it is faster. On our way to Tunney's we could walk to Westboro and take a transitway bus but that is an 8 minute walk and, in the middle of the day, transitway buses just don't feel as frequent as they used to be. If I have to wait 10 minutes, then walking to Tunney's would have been faster.

There were 4 (now 3) buses we can take. But the three local buses each run roughly every 30 minutes, and are all clustered together so if you miss the last one in a cluster when coming off the train, then you have to wait about 20 minutes for the next one. I can walk home in 20 minutes.

On the way to Tunney's it is a 6 minute walk between the 2 stops so I have to commit, it isn't just a matter of taking the first bus to show up.

I figure all of this is part of Ottawa Health's fitness initiative!

Again for me, it is mostly inconvenient, because I can easily walk distances. For the seniors here, it is devastating as they deal with isolation and increased costs due to Ubers (and taxis for the one who doesn't have a smart phone.) One has given up her bus pass (senior rate) and puts that money towards Ubers.

OC Transpo has not done a particularly good job of staggering trip times on various routes that have significant shared routes even on the remaining Transitways. Route 97 and 98 can have clustered trip times, which are terribly frustrating and why I am now so annoyed with the new two transfer plan that our neighbourhood faces except during peak hours. While we have made some improvements for commuters during peak hours, improvements are mostly lacking for those who now have to transfer more often in off-peak hours. Route 39 being the notable exception. If we are using the new transit network in off-peak hours, we can all expect unpredictable and unreliable transfers.

I frankly do not understand why two transfers is considerable acceptable especially in the long-term for any part of the city in order to reach downtown. This is a barrier to the usability of transit.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

OC Transpo has not done a particularly good job of staggering trip times on various routes that have significant shared routes even on the remaining Transitways. Route 97 and 98 can have clustered trip times, which are terribly frustrating and why I am now so annoyed with the new two transfer plan that our neighbourhood faces except during peak hours. While we have made some improvements for commuters during peak hours, improvements are mostly lacking for those who now have to transfer more often in off-peak hours. Route 39 being the notable exception. If we are using the new transit network in off-peak hours, we can all expect unpredictable and unreliable transfers.

I frankly do not understand why two transfers is considerable acceptable especially in the long-term for any part of the city in order to reach downtown. This is a barrier to the usability of transit.

2 transfers? As in local bus to buses that use the existing transitways and then the LRT?

Will Phase 2 solve much of that?
Would it be better if all local routes entered the Transitways?