Ontario Highways

[Djeffery]

They put roundabouts at the new 218 exit (highway 19 Ingersoll) when they replaced the overpass there a couple years ago. I think for Highbury, they would need to be really big roundabouts with that amount of trucks and it being 4 lanes wide. Also, the southbound traffic coming in at 100 (even though the posted limit drops to 70 south of Bradley) would really worry me approaching a roundabout. I've never really found the 2 roundabouts at 19 to be worrisome when I've taken a truck through them, but there is nowhere near the traffic there that Highbury has.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Windsor: yes - EC Row Expressway
London: yes - Highbury Avenue
Guelph: no - Hanlon Parkway is provincial and it’s only 70-80 km/h
Hamilton: no - Linc is 90 km/h and Red Valley has been downed to 80 km/h

There’s an extra one: Ottawa - City Road 174 after the split.

Lol you know what they all have in common? They’re all downloaded provincial highways.
EC Row = Highway 2
Highbury = Highway 126
Gardiner = QEW
The Queensway (east of the split) = Highway 17

Those are the four that I could think of!

The Queensway portion is Ottawa Route 174 but it was Hwy 17 back before it was downloaded.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

They put roundabouts at the new 218 exit (highway 19 Ingersoll) when they replaced the overpass there a couple years ago. I think for Highbury, they would need to be really big roundabouts with that amount of trucks and it being 4 lanes wide. Also, the southbound traffic coming in at 100 (even though the posted limit drops to 70 south of Bradley) would really worry me approaching a roundabout. I've never really found the 2 roundabouts at 19 to be worrisome when I've taken a truck through them, but there is nowhere near the traffic there that Highbury has.

I mean, the speed limit drops at the interchange anyway, so we may as well use a roundabout there. Like I said, earlier, barring costs. I just thought it'd be novel to imitate London, U.K. in this respect. I do admit that we'll be looking at a giant roundabout here though.

Traffic-wise, I wonder if this twist will do the job: Both southbound lanes can exit on the left (which means that only the outer lane exits straight) so we have 2 lanes going onto 401E. If we need 2 lanes to exit straight, we make that side of the roundabout have 3 lanes.

@Loco101: I think Ottawa's Airport Parkway may be the only municipal road that can attain a speed limit of 100 km/h (once twinned!!) that was never part of the provincial network. Funny enough, if I use the term Highway 17 in the Ottawa subforum, people will immediately correct me, "City Road 174". Also, what do you think of the prospect of Timmins building and, lol, tolling its own version of Highway 101 bypass? Something like a super-4 or a 4-lane divided freeway from Highway 144 to the mines near the NE corner of the city, with a single-point interchange at Highway 655.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I mean, the speed limit drops at the interchange anyway, so we may as well use a roundabout there. Like I said, earlier, barring costs. I just thought it'd be novel to imitate London, U.K. in this respect. I do admit that we'll be looking at a giant roundabout here though.

Traffic-wise, I wonder if this twist will do the job: Both southbound lanes can exit on the left (which means that only the outer lane exits straight) so we have 2 lanes going onto 401E. If we need 2 lanes to exit straight, we make that side of the roundabout have 3 lanes.

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying before. I thought you meant a roundabout at each side of the overpass, like what I mentioned was done at Ingersoll. Sounds like you actually mean one single roundabout overtop of the 401 that would serve both exits and on ramps on both sides of the highway. If so, I can't see any way that is feasible. The sheer size of that bridge you have to build to have that would be immense and expensive. We had a roundabout built over a railway here about 10 years ago and it was something like $25million then for a simple single lane rotary.

[Dengler Avenue]

What you proposed could work too. We just need one side to have 3 lanes so as to allow 2 lanes to exit left to enter the 401. Not having the circle in the sky sure cuts down the cost big time.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I mean, the speed limit drops at the interchange anyway, so we may as well use a roundabout there. Like I said, earlier, barring costs. I just thought it'd be novel to imitate London, U.K. in this respect. I do admit that we'll be looking at a giant roundabout here though.

Traffic-wise, I wonder if this twist will do the job: Both southbound lanes can exit on the left (which means that only the outer lane exits straight) so we have 2 lanes going onto 401E. If we need 2 lanes to exit straight, we make that side of the roundabout have 3 lanes.

@Loco101: I think Ottawa's Airport Parkway may be the only municipal road that can attain a speed limit of 100 km/h (once twinned!!) that was never part of the provincial network. Funny enough, if I use the term Highway 17 in the Ottawa subforum, people will immediately correct me, "City Road 174". Also, what do you think of the prospect of Timmins building and, lol, tolling its own version of Highway 101 bypass? Something like a super-4 or a 4-lane divided freeway from Highway 144 to the mines near the NE corner of the city, with a single-point interchange at Highway 655.

The Airport Parkway widening is proposed to be a 90 km/hr design speed and 80 km/hr posted speed. It wasn't provincial but was originally federal
https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/airport_pkwy_esr_5to10_en.pdf (p. 13 of PDF)

[Dengler Avenue]

https://www.yrt.ca/en/schedules-and-maps/resources/Documents/50.pdf
This is classic. The route map for YRT 50 actually shows the 400-404 connector and 404 extension.

[Dengler Avenue]

Just wondering...

Can single-point A4 parclo interchange be a thing? Or will the loops be too tight in that case? Every now and then, when I exited 401W at Highway 25, I noticed that the off-ramp’s curved at such an angle that I thought MTO was gonna build a single-point there.

[sonysnob]

A highway engineer could design anything, but a single point parclo seems pretty unlikely. It would require a uniquely designed bridge to either carry the freeway over or under the surface road, and the footprint for an interchange would still need to be fairly large to accommodate the loop ramps. For the trouble, a different interchange design would probably make more sense.

A SPUI or a diverging diamond would make a lot of sense for Maple View Drive on the 400 for example. That interchange is currently very problematic.

[Dengler Avenue]

I wonder how well the SPUI of Ottawa Airport Parkway over Hunt Club Road handles traffic during rush hour in that case. The land use of both spots is similar.

[sonysnob]

The Airport Parkway is a two-lane super two freeway with a relatively inconsequential amount of traffic for an interchange. I'm sure it works just fine.

[haljackey]

Here we go bois

https://highway401tilburytolondon.ca/?fb...LNCRiNWpkSFxcQBm022kqgqe9MqUxejhZIc64xtM

Project start in 2021? Any idea how long something like this will take? 2025? 2026+? Hopefully will be done by the time the Gordie Howe Bridge opens.

[Dengler Avenue]

“ Review of requirement and location for a new patrol yard within the Highway 401 corridor between Tilbury and London”

LoL OPP will really miss those median patrol spots.

By the way, how many lanes does 401 south of London have now? 6, 8 or 10? There was a lot of fuzz about it last year.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Here we go bois

https://highway401tilburytolondon.ca/?fb...LNCRiNWpkSFxcQBm022kqgqe9MqUxejhZIc64xtM

Project start in 2021? Any idea how long something like this will take? 2025? 2026+? Hopefully will be done by the time the Gordie Howe Bridge opens.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

“ Review of requirement and location for a new patrol yard within the Highway 401 corridor between Tilbury and London”

LoL OPP will really miss those median patrol spots.

By the way, how many lanes does 401 south of London have now? 6, 8 or 10? There was a lot of fuzz about it last year.

The bridge is expected to be open in 2024. This project is not widening all the way.

Currently, through London it is 6 lanes. Just after that, I think it goes back to 4.

[Dengler Avenue]

I think it is. 401 still has 6 lanes between Wellington and turnoff to 402. From the looks of it, MTO intends to bridge all the gaps between Tilbury and London.

Now I hope that this is something that every provincial party (especially liberals) can get behind.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I think it is. 401 still has 6 lanes between Wellington and turnoff to 402. From the looks of it, MTO intends to bridge all the gaps between Tilbury and London.

Now I hope that this is something that every provincial party (especially liberals) can get behind.

You are entitled to have whatever opinion of highway widening that you wish, however, just keep in mind that widening the 401 through Chatham is going to cost about a billion dollars (which is a realistic estimate from the MTO), and in an era with fixed budges and an emphasis on reducing government spending, that's a billion dollars that therefore cannot be spent elsewhere. So, my point is, saying that the 401 needs to be six-laned through Chatham-Kent is saying that it needs to be prioritized above over not-announced highway twinning in northern Ontario.

Again, you can support any policy you choose to, but you point is you can't have everything that you want, so if you think that the 401 needs to be widened to six lanes through C-K, then you think that needs to happen before any additional highway widening up north.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

You are entitled to have whatever opinion of highway widening that you wish, however, just keep in mind that widening the 401 through Chatham is going to cost about a billion dollars (which is a realistic estimate from the MTO), and in an era with fixed budges and an emphasis on reducing government spending, that's a billion dollars that therefore cannot be spent elsewhere. So, my point is, saying that the 401 needs to be six-laned through Chatham-Kent is saying that it needs to be prioritized above over not-announced highway twinning in northern Ontario.

Again, you can support any policy you choose to, but you point is you can't have everything that you want, so if you think that the 401 needs to be widened to six lanes through C-K, then you think that needs to happen before any additional highway widening up north.

I've actually been aware of that all along. Obviously, spending a billion here means not spending (or being able to spend) it elsewhere. (I've) never implied that we have an infinite amount of money. I'm at the point where I'm just happy if anything infrastructure-related (including hospitals) gets done at all.

Oh by the way, did your friend get back to you with the numbers yet?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

You are entitled to have whatever opinion of highway widening that you wish, however, just keep in mind that widening the 401 through Chatham is going to cost about a billion dollars (which is a realistic estimate from the MTO), and in an era with fixed budges and an emphasis on reducing government spending, that's a billion dollars that therefore cannot be spent elsewhere. So, my point is, saying that the 401 needs to be six-laned through Chatham-Kent is saying that it needs to be prioritized above over not-announced highway twinning in northern Ontario.

Again, you can support any policy you choose to, but you point is you can't have everything that you want, so if you think that the 401 needs to be widened to six lanes through C-K, then you think that needs to happen before any additional highway widening up north.

They can leave it 4 lanes through there for all I care. But the emphasis on this project is the median barrier, which would be the largest part of the expense. And by the time they do the median, they might as well just finish it off as 6 lanes because it will be that wide anyway. This was a big political story because of the highway deaths along that stretch.

As for how long this will take. Well, as I used to text to the radio talk show host who used to talk about this all the time with the widow who was the public face of it, it took 20 years to do the similar distance between Wellington Road in London and Highway 25 in Milton. And that was with it being built in several places at once for a while, as they worked east and west of Kitchener as well. I don't go west of London very often, so I don't know what the overpasses are like that way, so if they don't need to be replaced to make room for 6 lanes (or just due to age), then this could move along quicker. That was the issue going east of London was practically every overpass needed replacing, and many still need it as well.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Oh by the way, did your friend get back to you with the numbers yet?

I haven't remembered to ask yet to be honest.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

They can leave it 4 lanes through there for all I care. But the emphasis on this project is the median barrier, which would be the largest part of the expense. And by the time they do the median, they might as well just finish it off as 6 lanes because it will be that wide anyway. This was a big political story because of the highway deaths along that stretch.

As for how long this will take. Well, as I used to text to the radio talk show host who used to talk about this all the time with the widow who was the public face of it, it took 20 years to do the similar distance between Wellington Road in London and Highway 25 in Milton. And that was with it being built in several places at once for a while, as they worked east and west of Kitchener as well. I don't go west of London very often, so I don't know what the overpasses are like that way, so if they don't need to be replaced to make room for 6 lanes (or just due to age), then this could move along quicker. That was the issue going east of London was practically every overpass needed replacing, and many still need it as well.

The lack of a median barrier could have been addressed with a cable median barrier for much less cost.

I think the installation of the cable median could have been delivered at less than 20% of the cost than fully widening the highway to six lanes.

So, assuming a real MTO estimate of about $1 billion dollars to widen the entire highway, they could have achieved almost as safe a highway for $200 million dollars.

That would have left $800 million in funding available to improve other highways. The question then becomes, how many lives could be saved by investing $800 million on another highway corridor vs. the marginal safety improvement by investing an additional $800 million dollars on a marginal safety improvement vs. the cable median barrier.