The Great Canadian Transit Thread - Page 672

OTSkyline · #**13421** Posted **Jan 2, 2020, 8:24 PM**

Instead of providing free transit, I'd rather governments and transit agencies spend on expanding services and networks. No point of having it free if it doesn't go where you want (or at frequency that is needed).

ssiguy · #**13422** Posted **Jan 2, 2020, 9:34 PM**

I totally agree that frequency and service must be expanded but that is not the issue. How do such things help those who can't afford transit in the first place? Also, if your transit fare costs you as much as the insurance on your car that is already paid for, few will spend the extra time on transit and just use their car. This is particularly true with 2 people commuting together.

AS I have stated, I am against free transit but if transit really is an essential service then why isn't it treated as such by varying levels of government. If othe essential services like roads, healthcare, education, social services, fire, and ambulance can be funded thru general tax revenue then why can't transit?

Most people can afford transit but for many the cost difference bewteen their car is not great enough to warrant the inconvinience. People who rely on transit will continue to use it but in order to create a true paradigm shift in travelling patterns, agencies must try to convince choice drivers to switch over and significantly lowering the price of transit is one of the best ways to do it.

MalcolmTucker · #**13423** Posted **Jan 2, 2020, 10:23 PM**

Quote:

How do such things help those who can't afford transit in the first place?

You can do things in between zero for everybody and fares with a reasonable fare-box recovery for everybody. Preferably for people that need it based on income ahead of age based entitlements.

Quote:

If other essential services like roads, healthcare, education, social services, fire, and ambulance can be funded thru general tax revenue then why can't transit?

Roads are funded by user fees (gas taxes) and general taxes. I fail to see the difference you are trying to make. Roads and transit are funded that way because they are natural monopolies where the private market would either over or under provision different routes but are generally non-rivalrous to the provider.

Healthcare, education, social services, fire and ambulance are also market failures for various reasons, but for different reasons that if we had user fees on them, consumption would be too low, and since there are major positive externalities to the consumption, boosting consumption is beneficial.

GoTrans · #**13424** Posted **Jan 3, 2020, 12:54 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

You can do things in between zero for everybody and fares with a reasonable fare-box recovery for everybody. Preferably for people that need it based on income ahead of age based entitlements.

Roads are funded by user fees (gas taxes) and general taxes. I fail to see the difference you are trying to make. Roads and transit are funded that way because they are natural monopolies where the private market would either over or under provision different routes but are generally non-rivalrous to the provider.

Gas taxes are not allocated to roads, they are just another component of general revenue. Unlike the USA our fuel taxes and license fees are not assigned to roads. Fuel taxes includes fuel used by airlines, trucks, railways, trucks and ships. This is part of the reason they are not allocated strictly to roads. Governments don't like to be told which money they can spend on which projects.

Roads are not natural monopolies because anyone who can afford a vehicle regardless of where they live can use the road. Railways are monopolies because the entry costs are high and they control or provide the infrastructure, the prices, the trip paths, the dispatching and most of the equipment. Hence the problem with Via Rail.

MalcolmTucker · #**13425** Posted **Jan 3, 2020, 2:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Gas taxes are not allocated to roads, they are just another component of general revenue. Unlike the USA our fuel taxes and license fees are not assigned to roads. Fuel taxes includes fuel used by airlines, trucks, railways, trucks and ships. This is part of the reason they are not allocated strictly to roads. Governments don't like to be told which money they can spend on which projects.

Roads are not natural monopolies because anyone who can afford a vehicle regardless of where they live can use the road. Railways are monopolies because the entry costs are high and they control or provide the infrastructure, the prices, the trip paths, the dispatching and most of the equipment. Hence the problem with Via Rail.

That gas taxes are not kept in a ring fenced account does not mean that they are not somewhat allocated, and definitely does not mean that they aren't user fees. Airlines, railways and ships have different taxes. Even diesel for offroad and farm use has different tax treatment.

I think you misunderstand what natural monopolies are especially for roads. Imagine 3 private road companies maintain competing road networks. Right now in Canada the government holds and runs a monopoly on roads.

And what problems monopolies cause. A natural monopoly could provide excellent service to VIA. The two things aren't connected.

swimmer_spe · #**13426** Posted **Jan 4, 2020, 4:50 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

That gas taxes are not kept in a ring fenced account does not mean that they are not somewhat allocated, and definitely does not mean that they aren't user fees. Airlines, railways and ships have different taxes. Even diesel for offroad and farm use has different tax treatment.

I think you misunderstand what natural monopolies are especially for roads. Imagine 3 private road companies maintain competing road networks. Right now in Canada the government holds and runs a monopoly on roads.

And what problems monopolies cause. A natural monopoly could provide excellent service to VIA. The two things aren't connected.

But only if they spend the money.

GoTrans · #**13427** Posted **Jan 4, 2020, 7:16 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

That gas taxes are not kept in a ring fenced account does not mean that they are not somewhat allocated, and definitely does not mean that they aren't user fees. Airlines, railways and ships have different taxes. Even diesel for offroad and farm use has different tax treatment.

I think you misunderstand what natural monopolies are especially for roads. Imagine 3 private road companies maintain competing road networks. Right now in Canada the government holds and runs a monopoly on roads.

And what problems monopolies cause. A natural monopoly could provide excellent service to VIA. The two things aren't connected.

A monopoly is the following;

1. entrance to the service is controlled either by government or by the entities of the sector
2. prices are controlled by the sector
3. use of the assets of the sector's assets by other 3rd parties controlled by the sector's limited participants
4. the sector can make pricing, operational decisions and investment decisions only for the participants.

All of these are true with railways and not true with highways. You only need to have enough capital to buy 1 truck, obtain your fist client, license and insurance and viola you are a participant and other trucking companies cannot prevent you from operating. While the construction an maintenance of highways are outside the control of trucking companies and other users of the highway infrastructure the operation of the participants generally is not limited. It is only the construction and maintenance of hishways which is generally monopolistic.

Dengler Avenue · #**13428** Posted **Jan 4, 2020, 4:12 PM**

This morning, Waterloo had an LRT-pedestrian fatality near the university...

MalcolmTucker · #**13429** Posted **Jan 4, 2020, 4:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoTrans

A monopoly is the following;

1. entrance to the service is controlled either by government or by the entities of the sector
2. prices are controlled by the sector
3. use of the assets of the sector's assets by other 3rd parties controlled by the sector's limited participants
4. the sector can make pricing, operational decisions and investment decisions only for the participants.

All of these are true with railways and not true with highways. You only need to have enough capital to buy 1 truck, obtain your fist client, license and insurance and viola you are a participant and other trucking companies cannot prevent you from operating. While the construction an maintenance of highways are outside the control of trucking companies and other users of the highway infrastructure the operation of the participants generally is not limited. It is only the construction and maintenance of hishways which is generally monopolistic.

All four of those things are controlled by government. You’re thinking of trucking as a monopoly but that is very different from roads being a monopoly. Roads are a monopoly.

Nouvellecosse · #**13430** Posted **Jan 4, 2020, 5:13 PM**

Yea, those conditions don't necessarily result in a monopoly and could just as easily result in an oligopoly.

Chadillaccc · #**13431** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 5:54 AM**

Sort of transit related Toronto's Union Station interlink (or whatever the hell it's called) is coming along very nicely.

ZlJ+FkFfRj+akBkjOzu2XQ by Chadillaccc, on Flickr

YQGvSfPpSnaw6HDYuJ8bSA by Chadillaccc, on Flickr

Y%muT6qNTIW1B6hYNr7R1A by Chadillaccc, on Flickr

fullsizeoutput_4027 by Chadillaccc, on Flickr

p_xavier · #**13432** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 12:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Sort of transit related Toronto's Union Station interlink (or whatever the hell it's called) is coming along very nicely.

ZlJ+FkFfRj+akBkjOzu2XQ by Chadillaccc, on Flickr

YQGvSfPpSnaw6HDYuJ8bSA by Chadillaccc, on Flickr

Y%muT6qNTIW1B6hYNr7R1A by Chadillaccc, on Flickr

fullsizeoutput_4027 by Chadillaccc, on Flickr

Oh, that's much much nicer than what I expected. Last time I was there there was an homless guy pissing on the ground, I wonder how it'll be managed since it's covered now.

esquire · #**13433** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 2:24 PM**

They're doing some nice work with Union Station. I remember going there a number of times throughout the 90s to catch trains and it kind of felt like it was trapped in time in the late 1940s... just kind of shabby and outdated. Now it looks more like the kind of rail terminal you'd expect to see in a big European city where rail and transit really matter.

lrt's friend · #**13434** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 4:36 PM**

What rail transit projects are currently under construction across Canada and in what order are they expected to open to the public? I am talking about new lines and line extensions.

J.OT13 · #**13435** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 5:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What rail transit projects are currently under construction across Canada and in what order are they expected to open to the public? I am talking about new lines and line extensions.

This list dates from June, but gives you an idea. Obviously, the ION and O-Train Confederation Line are now complete. The O-Train Stage 2 and Hurontario are now u/c. Vancouver's Millennium extension (Broadway Subway) is planned.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6990171&postcount=1

Chadillaccc · #**13436** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 6:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

This list dates from June, but gives you an idea. Obviously, the ION and O-Train Confederation Line are now complete. The O-Train Stage 2 and Hurontario are now u/c. Vancouver's Millennium extension (Broadway Subway) is planned.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6990171&postcount=1

Hurontario and Confed 2 are UC?

I was just on Hurontario south of the 401 a couple weeks ago and there were no signs of even site prep.

p_xavier · #**13437** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 7:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What rail transit projects are currently under construction across Canada and in what order are they expected to open to the public? I am talking about new lines and line extensions.

Official liat is here :
https://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=198794 You can ask the moderator to add planned opening dates.

J.OT13 · #**13438** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 7:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Hurontario and Confed 2 are UC?

I was just on Hurontario south of the 401 a couple weeks ago and there were no signs of even site prep.

For Hurontario, the contract was awarded in October, so I assumed it was u/c. I could be wrong.

For the O-Train Stage 2, the Trillium Line south extension is well underway, with tracks being laid and the new elevated structure to the airport going up. Prep work for Confederation is visible at a few key locations: trees along the entire route are being cut down, a few staging areas are set-up, the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway is being shifted to allow for cut-and-cover tunnel construction, work is being done to re-align the 174 in order to make room for the transit corridor and stations.

Here's a video of Stage 2 Trillium progress. This was posted by OC Transpo on December 3, 2019.

• Video Link

Chadillaccc · #**13439** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 8:40 PM**

Wow that is wild! I had no idea an airport link was even seriously proposed in Ottawa with it being such a relatively minor airport, let alone that it's already underway. That's excellent! Really going hard into the 21st Century in Ottawa, y'all needed it for sure.

J.OT13 · #**13440** Posted **Jan 7, 2020, 8:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Wow that is wild! I had no idea an airport link was even seriously proposed in Ottawa with it being such a relatively minor airport, let alone that it's already underway. That's excellent! Really going hard into the 21st Century in Ottawa, y'all needed it for sure.

Don't get too excited. Passengers will need to take 3 trains to get from the airport to downtown.

Airport to South Keys
South Keys to Bayview
Bayview to Downtown

It's still significant. We'll have something to work with if/when we're ready for a true airport shuttle to downtown. The airport link also serves a major trade show facility, the EY Centre.