The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread

[JakeLRS]

Out of curiosity, why don’t the Wolfpack play out of BMO?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

Out of curiosity, why don’t the Wolfpack play out of BMO?

Because they don't really need to...Lamport does everything they need a stadium to do. Upgrades are being done now to be compliant with Super League regulations after promotion.

With both TFC and the Argos at BMO I don't really see any interest from MLSE on adding the Wolfpack to the BMO schedule, outside of the fact that MLSE does not own the Wolfpack.

[esquire]

It's interesting that the Wolfpack has made things work at Lamport. I've never been in it but from what I've seen on TV there is nothing about it that looks professional... it reminds me of the old University of Manitoba stadium, just super bare-bones with not much beyond a bench to sit on.

I'm not sure what the facilities in the top flight typically look like, but I'd imagine Lamport must be well back of the pack in that regard?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's interesting that the Wolfpack has made things work at Lamport. I've never been in it but from what I've seen on TV there is nothing about it that looks professional... it reminds me of the old University of Manitoba stadium, just super bare-bones with not much beyond a bench to sit on.

It's concrete stands with bench seating...very bare bones amenities underneath and within (beer carts, some canteens). That's basically it. The location is great, though, and really not much more is needed for the most basic of sports watching.

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not sure what the facilities in the top flight typically look like, but I'd imagine Lamport must be well back of the pack in that regard?

Some of the teams have very basic stadiums...


(Wakefield)


(Castleford)

Others play in proper stadiums...


(Huddersfield)

images via Wikipedia

A keen eye will note that the stadiums in Huddersfield, Wigan, and Hull are shared with EPL/former EPL teams.

[TorontoDrew]

Lamport Stadium is as basic as they come. I thought it was supposed to be torn down years ago. I suppose we would need a new stadium built elsewhere before they could demolish it now.

Joe Mellor scored the Wolfpack's 1000th point of the season! by Paul Henman, on Flickr

[Djeffery]

I don't know that demand would be there for them to use BMO at this point. A full Lamport looks a lot better than a third full BMO. And they are apparently going to put a lot of money into Lamport to improve the fan experience a bit as well as player facilities. I imagine there is only so much they can do but at least it's something.

How does this league work anyway? So, they win some level of games and get promoted to this new level. Can they just as easily go back to the lower level they were at last year? Was it a case of they moved up, someone else moved down, or is it in effect an expansion, you never drop down? What happens if they throw a bunch of money into this, they go into a slump and drop back down and now the fans turn their backs?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

How does this league work anyway? So, they win some level of games and get promoted to this new level. Can they just as easily go back to the lower level they were at last year? Was it a case of they moved up, someone else moved down, or is it in effect an expansion, you never drop down? What happens if they throw a bunch of money into this, they go into a slump and drop back down and now the fans turn their backs?

It's promotion/relegation similar to association football in most countries. In this league one team goes up and one team goes down every year, so in their current new league (Super League) the bottom team is relegated and replaced by the best second tier team (Championship). Theoretically Toronto could be relegated out of this league if they finished dead last in standings at the end of the season. There's risk of relegation but I have a feeling they'll be at least a mid-table team.

Leagues like this don't really do expansion in the normal sense. In 2017 they joined League 1 (third tier), won that, then played in Championship (second tier) for two seasons in 2018 and 2019. They very narrowly missed out on promotion in 2018 before attaining it this fall. If places like Boston, New York, or Ottawa are joining this league in the future then they will have to join at the third tier like Toronto did in 2017 and work their way up. It's a more satisfying system in comparison to North American franchise sports, IMO, and it's a system that requires more than just wealthy owners to buy a spot in a league. It puts more emphasis on fielding good quality teams and does not provide benefit for finishing poorly.

[thurmas]

Hockey Night in Canada ratings seem to be falling pretty low since Don Cherry was canned. The prime time games now are in the low 800,000's last year same period were at 983,000. The gap between them and CFL games on Friday nights seems to be not as wide as it used to be. I remember just a few years ago the prime time Leaf games would draw around 1.7 million and the late night west coast games would be around 700 to 800 thousand.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-dumping-don-cherry-hurting-hnic-ratings

[JHikka]

First things first: Of course opening night and the start of the season has higher numbers than the doldrums of December. That isn't really shocking and a bit of a stretch for the article to imply that this decrease is due to Cherry's departure and not simply general decline as the season naturally wears on (2018 had a more drastic decline from opener to December as shown below).

I highly question the intention behind the writing of this article but the easiest way to see to this would be to simply go back through Numeris' archive to see if there's been any discernible drop.

http://en.numeris.ca/media-and-events/tv-weekly-top-30#k=

HNIC Prime East (CBC), Numeris reporting numbers:
Nov 30-Dec 20, 2015: 2 Weekends: 1,030,000 avg.*
Nov 28-Dec 18, 2016: 3 Weekends: 1,161,000 avg.
Nov 27-Dec 17. 2017: 3 Weekends: 1,326,000 avg.
Nov 26-Dec 16, 2018: 3 Weekends: 1,005,000 avg.
Nov 30-Dec 14, 2019: 3 Weekends: 915,000 avg.

*The middle weekend of this period for 2015 did not enter the top 30 programs of the week. The 30th ranked program that week had 1.05M viewers.

Also, season debuts, since this year's was mentioned in the article:

HNIC Prime East (CBC), NHL first weekend:
October 5-11, 2015: 1,276,000
October 10-16, 2016: 1,545,000
October 2-8, 2017: 1,794,000
October 1-7, 2018: 1,641,000
October 6-13, 2019: 1,247,000

CBC's numbers are pretty much where they were in 2015 with a peak in the middle of the reporting period.

One thing that was not mentioned in the article was that the NHL season in recent years has been starting on Wednesdays, meaning that SN's Wednesday night coverage had opening games. 2019's game on SN garnered 1,407,000 compared to CBC's 1,247,000 on HNIC that Saturday. In 2018 the equivalent Wednesday opener on SN garnered the same 1.6M that HNIC got that Saturday. 2017 was the most recent year where HNIC's opener outdrew SN's Wednesday opener (1.7M v 1.4M).

So while CBC's openers have declined in the past few years the SN openers have increased, at least in comparison to CBC's figures.

So while the thought of Cherry's firing causing this decline is nice in theory it's probably just a natural decline both in the season and in hockey viewership in general on CBC as viewers migrate to other options, namely SN. It took me 15 minutes to get these numbers scrounged together - I genuinely wish the article had done the same legwork given that the past five years of numbers are available.

Also, since it's not pointed out, all of these figures are only for the early games on HNIC and make no mention of the late games (obviously, since Cherry only appeared for Leafs the early CBC games). This year's decline can be explained away pretty easily: Ottawa is in an awful spot, Montreal are moribund, and the Leafs (until Babcock's firing) were very much underperforming. Pretty simple reasoning for why figures would be down compared to last season.

tl;dr

• CBC ratings for HNIC are probably on the decline anyway;
• No real discernible difference in decline from October-December compared to 2018;
• These figures are only for the early games on HNIC; and,
• These HNIC figures do not take into account figures garnered on SN broadcasts.

Happy Holidays everyone.

[JHikka]

May as well update this for this week:

Numeris reporting numbers, December 16-22 2019:

Leafs Hockey, TSN, Tuesday, 760K
Leafs Hockey, SNOntario+, Friday, 726K
HNIC Prime East, Sportsnet, Saturday, 700K
HNIC Prime East, CBC, Saturday, 672K

http://assets.numeris.ca/Downloads/Decem...20December%2022,%202019%20(National).pdf

Initial World Junior numbers will be out this time next week. Last year's first three preliminary Canada games averaged 1.7M, the final prelim game averaged 2.4M, and Canada's QF loss to Finland averaged 2.0M. This year's numbers should be down given the tournament's timezones in Czechia.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by JHikka

May as well update this for this week:

Numeris reporting numbers, December 16-22 2019:

Leafs Hockey, TSN, Tuesday, 760K
Leafs Hockey, SNOntario+, Friday, 726K
HNIC Prime East, Sportsnet, Saturday, 700K
HNIC Prime East, CBC, Saturday, 672K

http://assets.numeris.ca/Downloads/Decem...20December%2022,%202019%20(National).pdf

Initial World Junior numbers will be out this time next week. Last year's first three preliminary Canada games averaged 1.7M, the final prelim game averaged 2.4M, and Canada's QF loss to Finland averaged 2.0M. This year's numbers should be down given the tournament's timezones in Czechia.

Man those hockey numbers are really weak and falling fast. The gap between primetime CFL and NHL games used to be 3 to 1 in favour of hockey with 1.7 million prime time on HNIC and CFL between 400 and 700 thousand. Now the gap seems to only be a couple hundred thousand if that. It could also be that with Toronto and the GTA population now consisting more and more of new Canadians every year and the white population shrinking in the GTA every year and the rise in the Raptors popularity that hockey is not what it used to be in Toronto. I would say that Montreal now is the hockey capital of the world and no longer Toronto in terms of fan interest.

[isaidso]

Wait another 20 years and you'll find Torontonians call hockey a redneck sport that hicks in places like Manitoba watch. If it reaches its logical conclusion we'll end up with many Torontonians unfamiliar with the Leafs and wondering why we don't just ditch US sports like hockey. Surely hockey is beneath us while soccer and cricket are more fitting for a world class city like Toronto? What's a Stanley Cup any way?

Can't happen? That's what football said 3-4 generations ago.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Wait another 20 years and you'll find Torontonians call hockey a redneck sport that hicks in places like Manitoba watch. If it reaches its logical conclusion we'll end up with many Torontonians unfamiliar with the Leafs and wondering why we don't just ditch US sports like hockey. Surely hockey is beneath us while soccer and cricket are more fitting for a world class city like Toronto? What's a Stanley Cup any way?

Can't happen? That's what football said 3-4 generations ago.

The CFL got smashed by the colossus of the NFL. There's lots of football fans in Toronto - they just cheer for Green Bay, New England or whatever NFL team now. It's why I can watch NFL games on CTV on basic cable, while the CFL is relegated to premium sports channels.

Where will hockey fans go? The NHL is the top dog in the world of professional ice hockey, one that already has entrenched roots in America. Now, I could see if the NHL keeps neglecting their Canadian teams and the base (especially among the more diverse population of modern Toronto), they might have their day of reckoning (see: the Ottawa Senators' story right now), but I don't think the same forces that hurt the CFL will do the same to the NHL.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Wait another 20 years and you'll find Torontonians call hockey a redneck sport that hicks in places like Manitoba watch. If it reaches its logical conclusion we'll end up with many Torontonians unfamiliar with the Leafs and wondering why we don't just ditch US sports like hockey. Surely hockey is beneath us while soccer and cricket are more fitting for a world class city like Toronto? What's a Stanley Cup any way?

Can't happen? That's what football said 3-4 generations ago.

So much whining/crying because Toronto has outgrown the CFL.

As long as the NHL is the best hockey league in the world, support won't be a problem in Toronto.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

The CFL got smashed by the colossus of the NFL. There's lots of football fans in Toronto - they just cheer for Green Bay, New England or whatever NFL team now. It's why I can watch NFL games on CTV on basic cable, while the CFL is relegated to premium sports channels.

Not really.

I have no doubt that Bell would love to force you to subscribe to TSN to watch NFL games on TV the same way that you have to subscribe to a channel to watch your regional NHL feed or the CFL, but they can't do that because there are so many games available on US broadcast TV. Bell/Rogers/whoever can't monopolize the rights the same way.

[JHikka]

The Toronto assumptions are probably fine in theory but without any regionalized breakdown of viewers or ratings they're just assumptions. Leafs SNO viewers and ratings, especially for those midweek games, are fine as they are IMO. People, not just contained to Toronto but Canada at large, will watch whatever Toronto team is hot at the moment. A few years ago it was Jays, now it's Raptors, and the Leafs always pull alright numbers regardless.

Originally Posted by esquire

I have no doubt that Bell would love to force you to subscribe to TSN to watch NFL games on TV the same way that you have to subscribe to a channel to watch your regional NHL feed or the CFL, but they can't do that because there are so many games available on US broadcast TV. Bell/Rogers/whoever can't monopolize the rights the same way.

Indeed. If people can't watch on CTV they'll watch on FOX or whatever American channel is showing the game on basic packages. CTV gets whatever piece of the NFL ratings pie they can and moves on.

Originally Posted by wave46

Now, I could see if the NHL keeps neglecting their Canadian teams and the base (especially among the more diverse population of modern Toronto), they might have their day of reckoning (see: the Ottawa Senators' story right now), but I don't think the same forces that hurt the CFL will do the same to the NHL.

How is the NHL neglecting Canadian teams?

Originally Posted by thurmas

Man those hockey numbers are really weak and falling fast. The gap between primetime CFL and NHL games used to be 3 to 1 in favour of hockey with 1.7 million prime time on HNIC and CFL between 400 and 700 thousand.

I mean, if you add the SN and CBC numbers on Saturday you end up with a combined 1.3M, which is more than any CFL reg. season game and roughly half what the Grey Cup brings in. You have to keep in mind that HNIC numbers have been split CBC/SN for the past five years or so. The CFL is not making ground on the NHL in any meaningful way in Canada, IMO.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Initial World Junior numbers will be out this time next week. Last year's first three preliminary Canada games averaged 1.7M, the final prelim game averaged 2.4M, and Canada's QF loss to Finland averaged 2.0M. This year's numbers should be down given the tournament's timezones in Czechia.

World Juniors, Canada/USA Boxing Day, TSN, 2.25M.
Raptors Christmas Day, SN, ~1.0M.

Raptors have again set a high-water mark for regular season most-watched game.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Toronto assumptions are probably fine in theory but without any regionalized breakdown of viewers or ratings they're just assumptions. Leafs SNO viewers and ratings, especially for those midweek games, are fine as they are IMO. People, not just contained to Toronto but Canada at large, will watch whatever Toronto team is hot at the moment. A few years ago it was Jays, now it's Raptors, and the Leafs always pull alright numbers regardless.



Indeed. If people can't watch on CTV they'll watch on FOX or whatever American channel is showing the game on basic packages. CTV gets whatever piece of the NFL ratings pie they can and moves on.


How is the NHL neglecting Canadian teams?


I mean, if you add the SN and CBC numbers on Saturday you end up with a combined 1.3M, which is more than any CFL reg. season game and roughly half what the Grey Cup brings in. You have to keep in mind that HNIC numbers have been split CBC/SN for the past five years or so. The CFL is not making ground on the NHL in any meaningful way in Canada, IMO.

aren't the Saturday sportsnet and city tv games usually Habs or Senators and the CBC game is the Leafs? I got rid of sportsnet as their announcers and hosts are very annoying and way too much of their coverage is dedicated to baseball. Also Grey Cup did 3.9 million viewers this year and CFL playoffs were doing 1 million to 1.6 million viewers.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Also Grey Cup did 3.9 million viewers this year and CFL playoffs were doing 1 million to 1.6 million viewers.

GC 2018: 3.1M
GC 2019: 3.9M

The average for CFL divisional games are roughly 900K-1M. Source

Division finals are 1-1.3M, dipping below that in 2018. [Source]

A lot of this depends on Saskatchewan, though, since that province drives CFL ratings more than the other teams.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Berklon

So much whining/crying because Toronto has outgrown the CFL.

As long as the NHL is the best hockey league in the world, support won't be a problem in Toronto.

The fact that people think of the CFL as something to be "outgrown" just shows how provincial sports fandom is in this city. There's no city in the world that only supports teams that are at the pinnacle of their sport. That seems to be a uniquely Toronto/Canada thing.

Originally Posted by JHikka

How is the NHL neglecting Canadian teams?

It's pretty common knowledge that NHL teams aren't really located based on demand. If we had a promotion/relegation system like the Wolfpack play in natural supply and demand would take over and we'd have more teams in Canada and fewer in the US. And, for that matter, we'd have more teams in eastern Canada than the west.