Will electric cars encourage sprawl?

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by montréaliste

There may still be a better option in hydrogen powered vehicles.

That should be the real thing in the end, but the problem is producing proper hydrogen is still energy-greedy. They're searching some improved process to make it.
I read the French industry had a lot of hope in this technology which, again, is very likely to a bright future.
They're begging the French state and the EU for more money to fund related research. They will find out about some way to efficently produce their hydrogen.
You know, as they say, quand on cherche, on trouve. The sooner would be the better, cause this thing really seems to be super advanced and awesome.
It would put their current batteries relying on too many materials requiring heavy mining to bankruptcy, like overnight.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

You hit on the key word: convenience. This is why gas-powered cars are here to stay as things stand right now. It is much more convenient to fill up, or "recharge", a car that runs on gas. It takes less than 5 minutes. Can you charge a battery that runs a car from 10% to 95% in 5 minutes? What happens if you have to drive from DC to New York City and you forgot to plug in your car overnight? Do you have to wait until the next day now?

You completely missed the point though. Convenience is one possible benefit among many. Convenience might be important, but so is cost (with each consumer having a different cost threshold), reliability/maintenance, and overall user experience. There are equally many examples I could provide where we sacrificed convenience for cost and/or quality. For example, we lived in a rural area and we regularly drove 25 minutes to a nearby town to shop because it was cheaper with better selection (even including the cost of gas) compared to the high prices at the rural market. It's all about the total net benefits.

In the case of wood heat vs electric, the convenience difference was huge compared to the other factors. The increase in cost was perhaps 10% and short power outages only occurred perhaps once a year, yet the inconvenience of having to buy wood, have it delivered, bring it in and making fires, etc was huge. With cars, the other benefits are much bigger compared to the convenience disadvantage.

I can just imagine an alternate time line where electric cars were prevalent and people were trying to replace them with gasoline. The naysayers would say, "Sure you can power them faster under "perfect conditions" such as if you're near an expensive service station (with a huge underground storage tank filled with specially refined fuel prepared at dedicated facilities) and there's no big queue ahead of you. But it'll cost a fortune to build enough of these station to supply the whole auto fleet and it's impossible to power the cars anywhere but these specialized facilities. Whereas now you can power your car from home, work, shopping, or basically any electric outlet while you do other things. People won't stand for this!"

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I can just imagine an alternate time line where electric cars were prevalent and people were trying to replace them with gasoline. The naysayers would say, "Sure you can power them faster under "perfect conditions" such as if you're near an expensive service station (with a huge underground storage tank filled with specially refined fuel prepared at dedicated facilities) and there's no big queue ahead of you. But it'll cost a fortune to build enough of these station to supply the whole auto fleet and it's impossible to power the cars anywhere but these specialized facilities. Whereas now you can power your car from home, work, shopping, or basically any electric outlet while you do other things. People won't stand for this!"

Haha. Perfectly put.

This is a good thread and a good question. The answer is; yes. Electric cars will definitely encourage sprawl, all else being equal.

Currently there are multiple reasons why we might want to limit car use, and the most serious is that they produce GHGs. If you eliminate that negative, then cars become a lot less 'bad' and there will be less political will to discourage them.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by DCReid

Still if you want to take a long trip, like from DC to NYC, you have to worry about range and running out of juice. And batteries do degrade over time. No electric car for me until the range hits 500 miles.

that's actually a shorter trip than we took. (atl to jax - about 350mi) you make an interesting point about battery degradation. i know it's horrendous in the nissan leaf, but the battery pack in those is only passively air-cooled. most others (tesla, gm, audi/porsche's) are water cooled, and in some cases don't allow you to access the full capacity; the etron's battery is 95kwh but you can only tap into 83kwh of it. if you never fully discharge or recharge a lithium battery you can theoretically recharge it thousands of times without capacity loss; there are some teslas out there with hundreds of thousands of miles now that still have basically full capacity.

[JManc]

My next car will probably be a Tesla or at least some other EV but I still want to wait a few years before making the plunge.

[chris08876]

^^^^

The Porsche Taycan!

Yeah definitely wait until other manufacturers develop their version. Possibly prices go down as well. Tesla is the Apple of cars. Minimalist interiors can go to hell.

[dubu]

i dont want to post four pics of my drawings here. but this is the only way to have less cars. https://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=239987

i just updated it.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by chris08876

^^^^

The Porsche Taycan!

Yeah definitely wait until other manufacturers develop their version. Possibly prices go down as well. Tesla is the Apple of cars. Minimalist interiors can go to hell.

Yeah, the iPad glued to the dash thing is a terrible look. All other cars have since jumped on that shitty trend.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

You completely missed the point though. Convenience is one possible benefit among many. Convenience might be important, but so is cost (with each consumer having a different cost threshold), reliability/maintenance, and overall user experience. There are equally many examples I could provide where we sacrificed convenience for cost and/or quality. For example, we lived in a rural area and we regularly drove 25 minutes to a nearby town to shop because it was cheaper with better selection (even including the cost of gas) compared to the high prices at the rural market. It's all about the total net benefits.

In the case of wood heat vs electric, the convenience difference was huge compared to the other factors. The increase in cost was perhaps 10% and short power outages only occurred perhaps once a year, yet the inconvenience of having to buy wood, have it delivered, bring it in and making fires, etc was huge. With cars, the other benefits are much bigger compared to the convenience disadvantage.

I can just imagine an alternate time line where electric cars were prevalent and people were trying to replace them with gasoline. The naysayers would say, "Sure you can power them faster under "perfect conditions" such as if you're near an expensive service station (with a huge underground storage tank filled with specially refined fuel prepared at dedicated facilities) and there's no big queue ahead of you. But it'll cost a fortune to build enough of these station to supply the whole auto fleet and it's impossible to power the cars anywhere but these specialized facilities. Whereas now you can power your car from home, work, shopping, or basically any electric outlet while you do other things. People won't stand for this!"

Aren't electric and hybrid cars higher in price? And you have to dispose of the battery in a certain place? These are the reasons why gas-powered cars are still here to stay. The increase in cost from wood to electricity in a house is worth it for the convenience of lighting, even distribution of heat, and so on. What are the benefits of an electric car that you cannot get from a gas-powered car, that would make people justify the increase in price?

[chris08876]

Also the concept that 35+k is a lot for many people.

Even 30k... for some people, is a lot. The model 3 starts at 35k, and thats just the minimum, the bare model, forget about the Model S or X. Cars like the Civic/Accord and Corolla will continue to win buyers due to its great reliability, and very very affordable.

Until prices go down, gas will remain attractive. But once the competition becomes a little more fierce, and it becomes less of a monopoly for Tesla, we will see big price drops.

On a side note, IDK what that Cyber pickup is all about. Good luck getting Farmers to ditch the King Racher for that POS. At least the Rivian R1T looks like a pick up, but it starts out at like 70k, so there's that.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Haha. Perfectly put.

This is a good thread and a good question. The answer is; yes. Electric cars will definitely encourage sprawl, all else being equal.

Currently there are multiple reasons why we might want to limit car use, and the most serious is that they produce GHGs. If you eliminate that negative, then cars become a lot less 'bad' and there will be less political will to discourage them.

I think political will is a big factor in sprawl. A lot of it comes down to political will. If you have local or state government pushing for urban development (like in actual cities), essentially bending over for developers, and encouraging the growth... good things will happen. Its when you have a hostile local/state government that things start to go sour, at least on the development front.

[JManc]

Rednecks with Punisher skull and Blue lives matter decals or ranchers won't be buying Tesla's.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Aren't electric and hybrid cars higher in price? And you have to dispose of the battery in a certain place? These are the reasons why gas-powered cars are still here to stay. The increase in cost from wood to electricity in a house is worth it for the convenience of lighting, even distribution of heat, and so on. What are the benefits of an electric car that you cannot get from a gas-powered car, that would make people justify the increase in price?

Surely you realise that prices don't stay the same forever, right? The price of gas fluctuates and over the long run steadily increases and the prices of electric/hybrid cars has steadily decreased (for some in relative terms and for others relative to their range and performance) due to the mass production of batteries and the improvements in battery technology.

But even without them being cheaper, their overall cost of ownership is already lower over the vehicle lifespan (generally anything beyond a 10-15 year period depending on the vehicles compared). This is because they have lower maintenance requirements (no oil changes, few brake pad changes, few moving parts to wear, etc.) and because in most places the cost of electricity to power them is lower than the cost of gas for a similar gas car. Electric cars also have much lower NVH levels (noise vibration harshness), and have more torque and instant acceleration which makes many motorists prefer their driving experience. I would have gone into more detail previously but somehow I assumed this was common knowledge. Sometimes it can be hard to see beyond one's bubble.

[dubu]

cars will always be cars. you cant download horse power or better battery.
electric cars have been around as long as gas ones. the next step are flying cars.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Surely you realise that prices don't stay the same forever, right? The price of gas fluctuates and over the long run steadily increases and the prices of electric/hybrid cars has steadily decreased (for some in relative terms and for others relative to their range and performance) due to the mass production of batteries and the improvements in battery technology.

But even without them being cheaper, their overall cost of ownership is already lower over the vehicle lifespan (generally anything beyond a 10-15 year period depending on the vehicles compared). This is because they have lower maintenance requirements (no oil changes, few brake pad changes, few moving parts to wear, etc.) and because in most places the cost of electricity to power them is lower than the cost of gas for a similar gas car. Electric cars also have much lower NVH levels (noise vibration harshness), and have more torque and instant acceleration which makes many motorists prefer their driving experience. I would have gone into more detail previously but somehow I assumed this was common knowledge. Sometimes it can be hard to see beyond one's bubble.

Man..speaking of bubble. You have a point about EV prices going down as the technology is more cost effectively mass produced but you went off in left field assuming people knew the technical nuances of EV ownership compared ICE cars

[badrunner]

ICE cars still offer that freedom and spontaneity that EVs can't give you. I can get in my car right now and literally drive across the country without any planning whatsoever. EVs just don't have the infrastructure yet, and even if it existed, you'd be doing a whole lot of waiting around while your car charges. I see EVs more as city cars and commuter cars. You won't be doing anything like this in an EV anytime soon:

These Guys Just Drove an E63 AMG Across America in a Record 27 Hours 25 Minutes
The Cannonball Record has been broken again.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture...america-in-a-record-27-hours-25-minutes/

[JManc]

Originally Posted by badrunner

ICE cars still offer that freedom and spontaneity that EVs can't give you. I can get in my car right now and literally drive across the country without any planning whatsoever. EVs just don't have the infrastructure yet, and even if it existed, you'd be doing a whole lot of waiting around while your car charges. I see EVs more as city cars and commuter cars. You won't be doing anything like this in an EV anytime soon:

These Guys Just Drove an E63 AMG Across America in a Record 27 Hours 25 Minutes
The Cannonball Record has been broken again.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture...america-in-a-record-27-hours-25-minutes/

Governments are mandating transition to EV's so while not there yet, they will be ubiquitous in about 10 years and their range will probably exceed that of a Prius or Civic and infrastructure will be far more developed. Just in the past few years alone, charging stations have popped up everywhere and EV's are still relatively rare.

[Mikemike]

Tesla seems to have figured out how to produce cars at volume, and will be roughly equal to Mazda in sales volume in about 2 years when their next factory opens. I expect that they will be Easily a top 10 car company by volume before their growth slows down and others catch up to their technology. Electric cars are only a couple percent of sales this year but the transition is coming fast.

There will be a lot of changes to how we drive, beyond the lower per-mike cost. It will be a couple decades before electrics outnumber gas cars in the used market, but once they do street parking will change, people will need to have a private parking/charging space. Residential Street parking will become less valuable, and less used. Electric cars will bring mileage-based insurance that will marginally decrease driving before self-driving makes longer commutes bearable. I expect there will be more road tolling as gas taxes apply to less and less driving.

[dubu]

this threads reminds me of when i lived in portland i was many times almost hit by a car, ive had friends hit by cars. but with how big cars are now and how quiet they are getting its not safe.

[yaletown_fella]

Electric Cars will not encourage urban sprawl.

Low interest rates, homeownership subsidies, NIMBYism/low supply, lack of rent control, and the promotion of homeownership as an investment has caused an unhealthy inflation of real estate values. This has caused the working poor (and whatevers left of the lower middle class) to have no choice rent or buy in the far flung suburbs where it's still affordable.

There are not very many millenials who want to buy a far flung acre lot and build a custom estate home. They would rather be in the city with all the amenities and community it offers.

If we have no choice but to live far outside the city, Id rather commute in an electric car. A car is a huge benefit , especially for blue collar business owners or people working in the gig economy.

Transit only makes sense for employees working in an office or fixed location, retirees, or students. You can't deliver or drive around and see or service clients on transit.