Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[scottN]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

People wanting road improvements to reduce their own personal travel times will cast about for any rationale to support their desires. They feel threatened by the idea that THEY could use transit instead.

I suspect tradespeople know what their time is worth and paying a congestion charge to save time travelling from site to site during the day will be more than worth their while.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Where are you getting "90%" from? And what makes you think that bus service that doesn't even justify a B-Line yet would be attractive enough to make a difference? Right now it seems to be all stick, no carrot for Delta.

This report (Tables 5 and 6) showed that about 94% of the traffic going through the tunnel at peak hours was cars or motorcycles. 0.5% was buses, and the remainder was trucks.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

This report (Tables 5 and 6) showed that about 94% of the traffic going through the tunnel at peak hours was cars or motorcycles. 0.5% was buses, and the remainder was trucks.

Makes sense (the Port claims less than 3% themselves), but you seem to be going on the assumption that all the "necessary" trips are being made in the trucks and the "unnecessary" ones in the SOVs. Plenty of tradespeople and gig workers drive cars.

If it's a confirmed fact that most GMT drivers are blue/white collars with fixed destinations, then there's at least a case for bus lanes; without a breakdown of who's coming from where to do what, one can argue that a significant chunk vehicle traffic is coming from the ferry terminal or Peace Arch, and/or that everybody who can take transit already is and the rest have to drive.

IMO better to keep the roadspace and spread out the traffic via peak tolling. Not sure why you think I'm against that.

[libtard]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Seattle has High Occupancy Toll lanes on I-405 and SR-167 and tolls for bridges.

The HOT lanes charge variable rates depending on distance travelled and current demand.

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Tolling/405/default.htm

I-405 tolls in real-time:
https://www.wsdot.com/traffic/seattle/flowmaps/I-405Toll.aspx

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Tolling/SR167HotLanes/default.htm

SR-167 tolls in real-time:
https://www.wsdot.com/traffic/seattle/flowmaps/SR167Toll.aspx

Hot lanes that are completely up to the driver whether they choose to use them are different than what the earlier user was proposing, which was distance pricing for all drivers, forcing them to use it or they don’t get insured. I would welcome HOT lanes to the lower mainland.

[xsoccerplayer18x]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The bridge iteration had full median transit lanes with in-situ bus stops like a true rapid bus system.

The vague info so far released along with the renders for the new tunnel iteration depicts buses on the shoulder lanes... which is very concerning...

The independent technical review report states that the median transit lanes and HOV would cost $500 million (pages 67 and 72 of the report), for what is thought to be of little benefit because tolls are not going to be re-instated on the crossing. Because of that, there will be little increase in transit usage to justify the expense. They are proposing to keep the existing shoulder bus lanes and off-ramps to save money.

Here's a link to the report for those interested: https://blog.gov.bc.ca/app/uploads/sites...ependent-Technical-Review_FINAL_corr.pdf

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by libtard

Please cite 1 North American city that employs this type of technology.

Originally Posted by libtard

Hot lanes that are completely up to the driver whether they choose to use them are different than what the earlier user was proposing, which was distance pricing for all drivers, forcing them to use it or they don’t get insured. I would welcome HOT lanes to the lower mainland.

The question was regarding the use of the technology.
Same technology - different type of implementation.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by xsoccerplayer18x

The independent technical review report states that the median transit lanes and HOV would cost $500 million (pages 67 and 72 of the report), for what is thought to be of little benefit because tolls are not going to be re-instated on the crossing. Because of that, there will be little increase in transit usage to justify the expense. They are proposing to keep the existing shoulder bus lanes and off-ramps to save money.

Here's a link to the report for those interested: https://blog.gov.bc.ca/app/uploads/sites...ependent-Technical-Review_FINAL_corr.pdf

I wouldn't think tolls would be the only reason to provide for a better transit solution on the corridor. There's making transit more attractiv and eventually when the corridor becomes congested again (without tolls), better transit service would be beneficial then.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by xsoccerplayer18x

The independent technical review report states that the median transit lanes and HOV would cost $500 million (pages 67 and 72 of the report), for what is thought to be of little benefit because tolls are not going to be re-instated on the crossing. Because of that, there will be little increase in transit usage to justify the expense. They are proposing to keep the existing shoulder bus lanes and off-ramps to save money.

Here's a link to the report for those interested: https://blog.gov.bc.ca/app/uploads/sites...ependent-Technical-Review_FINAL_corr.pdf

Yeah, that report is the dictionary definition of value engineering, penny pinching, short sightedness, etc...

Those bus shoulder lanes now are embarrassing, because they aren’t even lanes, they literally are shoulders (you know, where people having car trouble pull over onto and any potential cyclist would be riding...)

I really hope that even those on here who favor transit over highways agree that removing the true bus lane elements simply to save $500 million is inexcusable.

[logan5]

The median bus lanes would have been a very low cost form of rapid transit. For 500 million, we could have 24 km's of true BRT. Very fast and very cheap to build - 21 million per km.

Lots of people use the park and rides for commuter buses in Langley and south Surrey, so I can imagine that if a much faster service came on line, people would use it, regardless of any tolls. The lanes would also pave the way for higher capacity train service that could tie into the Arbutus right of way. That would provide a commuter service into downtown that is much faster than driving, and have more capacity than a 16 lane freeway.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by logan5

The median bus lanes would have been a very low cost form of rapid transit. For 500 million, we could have 24 km's of true BRT. Very fast and very cheap to build - 21 million per km.

Lots of people use the park and rides for commuter buses in Langley and south Surrey, so I can imagine that if a much faster service came on line, people would use it, regardless of any tolls. The lanes would also pave the way for higher capacity train service that could tie into the Arbutus right of way. That would provide a commuter service into downtown that is much faster than driving, and have more capacity than a 20 lane freeway.

Also worth noting that those bus lanes came with a direct bus only ramp system connecting them directly to Bridgeport Station. Given the destinations of South Surrey, White Rock, that new mega mall in Delta and of course the ferries, I am pretty sure that $500 million would have been a bargain for the transit usage and benefit that would have come about.

Still can’t believe that aspect of all is seemingly getting cut.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Seattle has High Occupancy Toll lanes on I-405 and SR-167 and tolls for bridges.

The HOT lanes charge variable rates depending on distance travelled and current demand.

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Tolling/405/default.htm

I-405 tolls in real-time:
https://www.wsdot.com/traffic/seattle/flowmaps/I-405Toll.aspx

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Tolling/SR167HotLanes/default.htm

SR-167 tolls in real-time:
https://www.wsdot.com/traffic/seattle/flowmaps/SR167Toll.aspx

Pretty sure CalTrans also operates variable rate toll routes, plus discounts (and the choice of invoicing OR running a balance on your account) for transponder equipped (FasTrak) vehicles on all metered roads and bridges. Google also indicates Georgia does as well with the Peach Pass

[officedweller]

Here's an article:

‘Dynamic tolls’: How highways can charge $40 for driving just 10 miles
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017...s-manage-highway-traffic-jams/930900001/


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017...s-manage-highway-traffic-jams/930900001/

[BCPhil]

I think a good example is the Florida Turnpike. It's entire length is tolled. And for going from Miami to Orlando, avoiding the toll road by taking I-95 adds like an hour.

Also, Portland Oregon is in the planning stages of adding tolls to the existing lanes of the I-5 and I-205. The money collected from any toll in Oregon would go into a pot that can only be used to fund road construction projects.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by libtard

Hot lanes that are completely up to the driver whether they choose to use them are different than what the earlier user was proposing, which was distance pricing for all drivers, forcing them to use it or they don’t get insured. I would welcome HOT lanes to the lower mainland.

While I agree, we currently don't have any highway wide enough to accommodate repurposing a lane for HOT. Most of our highways are a laughable 2+2 lanes...

[Dengler Avenue]

Some are doable:
99 from Ladner to border crossing - fill in the median;
TCH from 202nd Street onward to Abby - same thing.

I don't know if anything could be done with Upper Level Highway due to terrain. 91? We might as well reconstruct that highway from Shell Road to 64 Avenue. (Watch out for the bogs!) Oh by the way, we should have it fly over both the rail track and Shell Road. SFPR? Even if it's a freeway from one end to the other, there's indeed no room for expansion...

[libtard]

It’s interesting. If the liberals had stayed in power, the tolls on the port Mann and golden ears would have remained and the new Massey bridge would be well under construction. The liberals legacy will be massive pieces of infrastructure that actually got built. What has the NDP really done in terms of infrastructure? What will their legacy be?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by libtard

It’s interesting. If the liberals had stayed in power, the tolls on the port Mann and golden ears would have remained and the new Massey bridge would be well under construction. The liberals legacy will be massive pieces of infrastructure that actually got built. What has the NDP really done in terms of infrastructure? What will their legacy be?

A different kind of infrastructure: housing affordability

I mean, I’ve heard conflicting stories on this end, and I’ve been out of Vancity for so long, so I’m not sure.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

A different kind of infrastructure: housing affordability

I mean, I’ve heard conflicting stories on this end, and I’ve been out of Vancity for so long, so I’m not sure.

NDP has not did anything to effect housing costs. I think the Liberals actually put more money in housing. There were several purpose built buildings under there rain for low income. To effect housing costs they would need to build 1000 plus units a year designed for moderate incomes which would allow working middle class to stay a middle class.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by libtard

It’s interesting. If the liberals had stayed in power, the tolls on the port Mann and golden ears would have remained and the new Massey bridge would be well under construction. The liberals legacy will be massive pieces of infrastructure that actually got built. What has the NDP really done in terms of infrastructure? What will their legacy be?

Hospitals, schools, Skytrain, and yes, bridges (Patullo to start), extra lane on the AFB. New Ferries.

They've only been in power 2.5 years, the Libs had 16.

[libtard]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Hospitals, schools, Skytrain, and yes, bridges (Patullo to start), extra lane on the AFB. New Ferries.

They've only been in power 2.5 years, the Libs had 16.

You can’t count a bridge that hasn’t even got a shovel in the ground yet. And it’s just a replacement isn’t it? No extra capacity?