PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[MN/WI]

The Westin lighting system is cool enough. Probably not a whole lot of thought went in to it.

[TK2001]

Originally Posted by MN/WI

The Westin lighting system is cool enough. Probably not a whole lot of thought went in to it.

A lot of though or not, I bet it'll make the tower stick out like a sore thumb like FMC. I look forward to that VERY much

[Daario]

Originally Posted by TK2001

Just posting here to show what's coming to our skyline

I have to say, your renderings have really come a long way from how they were. I remember a while back I was trashing your renderings here, but they really have improved. I've been on this forum for years and it's been cool to see your skills continue to grow. Kudos!

[Nova08]

East Market to get new Hilton-branded boutique hotel
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...t-to-get-new-hilton-brandedboutique.html

East Market, the development that has reshaped the former Girard Square along Market Street in Center City, will add an $80 million, 236-room Hilton-brand hotel called Canopy.

National Real Estate Development is building the hotel at 1180 Ludlow St.

[mcgrath618]

-snip-

Confusing article. They’re referring to the Stephen Girard Building.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

-snip-

Confusing article. They’re referring to the Stephen Girard Building.

Yeah, Natalie's writing is usually clearer. They are really not "building" anything. They are renovating an existing building for a hotel brand. And have been for some time. This has long been known. It's just that they now announced Canopy as the brand. Good brand. I like them.

[iheartphilly]

^
Is the $80 million dollar price tag correct, then? For a reno, wowo!. You could get a brand new bldg for that amount.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
Is the $80 million dollar price tag correct, then? For a reno, wowo!. You could get a brand new bldg for that amount.

Dunno how expensive that is for a reno. But it's a gut reno. You definitely couldn't build a 13 story hotel for that price. You couldn't build a building like Stephen Girard and of that quality in that style in Philly today at all.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Dunno how expensive that is for a reno. But it's a gut reno. You definitely couldn't build a 13 story hotel for that price. You couldn't build a building like Stephen Girard and of that quality in that style in Philly today at all.

oh, ok. yeah, I suppose that includes fitting out the hotel and all that stuff that goes into hotels nowadays. And, yes definitely not the craftsmanship or material like the old days of classic pre-war bldgs, but I remember a few highrises in the last couple of years with a price tag around 80 million. I was just skeptical of that number and what was included, that's all.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
Is the $80 million dollar price tag correct, then? For a reno, wowo!. You could get a brand new bldg for that amount.

Working within an existing structure is slower and less efficient than building new. While you are saving money on excavation and materials, everything else costs more when you not doing ground up construction. Add in historic preservation limitations, hazmat removal and other such things and the dollars add up. They also cleaned the entire facade of this building- very expensive process.

[GtownFriend]

A current review of the Disney Hole [Billy Penn]:
https://billypenn.com/2019/12/22/whateve...center-city-site-is-still-sitting-empty/
May it live up to the PR!

[acenturi]

Originally Posted by GtownFriend

A current review of the Disney Hole [Billy Penn]:
https://billypenn.com/2019/12/22/whateve...center-city-site-is-still-sitting-empty/
May it live up to the PR!

I'd speculate that a significant problem with the site is what quality level of retail can it support? Probably not High-End, considering that the entire corridor is essentially Mid-End (including the 10 ton C21 Gorilla directly across the street), with a scattering of Low-End retail - other than standalone Wanamakers at the tail end of the area. An entertainment/🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 complex would likely be a ? financial investment - as well as dilute the quality of the Historic District (and be vetoed by the Feds). A Hotel - unlikely, with the big Lowes and Marriott convention hotels 3 blocks down the street. A high end residential condo - questionable, considering the quality of the 24 hour street traffic - now if this were NYC, a condo there would likely be a huge hit. What then would provide a successful long term venture and reasonable ROI for an investor at that location - as well as support/enhance the quality of Market East in general?
I'm stumped.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

I think condos are still likely on the table due to the proximity to office buildings. Housing was done for the East Market complex so it seems reasonable. An office tower would be cool, but there is already a lot proposed, although mostly in West Philly, and possibly 1301 Market. At this point entertainment would be out, because the Gallery has Round1 and the AMC now

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by acenturi

I'd speculate that a significant problem with the site is what quality level of retail can it support? Probably not High-End, considering that the entire corridor is essentially Mid-End (including the 10 ton C21 Gorilla directly across the street), with a scattering of Low-End retail - other than standalone Wanamakers at the tail end of the area. An entertainment/🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 complex would likely be a ? financial investment - as well as dilute the quality of the Historic District (and be vetoed by the Feds). A Hotel - unlikely, with the big Lowes and Marriott convention hotels 3 blocks down the street. A high end residential condo - questionable, considering the quality of the 24 hour street traffic - now if this were NYC, a condo there would likely be a huge hit. What then would provide a successful long term venture and reasonable ROI for an investor at that location - as well as support/enhance the quality of Market East in general?
I'm stumped.

I think a Hotel/Condo complex with an entertainment venue (like a 3000 seat theatre) and some retail would do well here. It's true that there is existing hotel options in Market East but there is far more capacity in Philly that could easily withstand a project this size - especially this close to the convention center.

The longer they hold this, the more it seems like it'll be destined for the next cycle. I don't believe that they have been actively moving on anything on this site. It seems like the plan is to have the market come to them.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

I think condos are still likely on the table due to the proximity to office buildings. Housing was done for the East Market complex so it seems reasonable. An office tower would be cool, but there is already a lot proposed, although mostly in West Philly, and possibly 1301 Market. At this point entertainment would be out, because the Gallery has Round1 and the AMC now

I think there is still room for entertainment. A Dave N Busters would round this area out. And isn’t the one down on Columbus closing? There’s a lot of hotels now, but I wouldn’t necessarily say we are past saturation or that it’s be impossible for one to well here as part of a mixed use project. I still want a Nordstrom or Bloomingdale. With Eastern Center City getting richer and denser, I wouldn’t rule it out for this location. Time will tell...

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by acenturi

I'd speculate that a significant problem with the site is what quality level of retail can it support? Probably not High-End, considering that the entire corridor is essentially Mid-End (including the 10 ton C21 Gorilla directly across the street), with a scattering of Low-End retail - other than standalone Wanamakers at the tail end of the area. An entertainment/🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 complex would likely be a ? financial investment - as well as dilute the quality of the Historic District (and be vetoed by the Feds). A Hotel - unlikely, with the big Lowes and Marriott convention hotels 3 blocks down the street. A high end residential condo - questionable, considering the quality of the 24 hour street traffic - now if this were NYC, a condo there would likely be a huge hit. What then would provide a successful long term venture and reasonable ROI for an investor at that location - as well as support/enhance the quality of Market East in general?
I'm stumped.

You're not thinking very hard then....

There's dozens of retail, entertainment, experiential, hotel, residential, office, condo opportunities that the city lacks that would be amazing here. The East Market Development as a whole is larger than this parcel and is doing okie dokie.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

I think there is still room for entertainment. A Dave N Busters would round this area out. And isn’t the one down on Columbus closing? There’s a lot of hotels now, but I wouldn’t necessarily say we are past saturation or that it’s be impossible for one to well here as part of a mixed use project. I still want a Nordstrom or Bloomingdale. With Eastern Center City getting richer and denser, I wouldn’t rule it out for this location. Time will tell...

Fashion District just opened a Round One near the AMC. It's massive, it's really cool. Huge arcade, full bar restaurant, billiards, bowling lanes, massive karaoke rooms. Definitely way better other uses for this space.

Edit to add: - the new AMC is pretty solid - food and beverage delivered to your seats and the Dolby Cinema (Cinema 1) is easily the best cinema experience in the region. Full reclining leather seats, true blacks, immersive sound.

[SEFTA]

I have mixed feelings about the Disney Hole. On one hand I want to see development now. On the other, I want something of quality and size here. Mega transit center! I think it would be best to let E Market absorb the latest developments and improve the chances of something good here.
Dave and Busters! Exactly what I wouldn't want to see.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Londonee

You're not thinking very hard then....

There's dozens of retail, entertainment, experiential, hotel, residential, office, condo opportunities that the city lacks that would be amazing here. The East Market Development as a whole is larger than this parcel and is doing okie dokie.

How about a nice Top Golf?

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Redddog

How about a nice Top Golf?

I like where your heads at! Though there's actually a decent smattering of Golf Simulator options not too far away from here like Golf and Social. And a new one is opening up soon at 21st and Chestnut in the new(-ish) high-rise there.