CANZUK International - "merger" of UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by misher

And yet they handle our tech support and a lot of our medical work.

The Philippines is our #1 source of immigrants and India is our #2. 0.5% of our population every year is basically one of these two ethnicities.

I’d say we will soon have more in common with these two nations than Britain or Australia.

The societal outcome looks like a mixed bag at this point. We are getting way more immigrants like that than people from CANZUK, but their kids are growing up in an Anglo-American/CANZUK societal framework.

[NotToScale]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not saying this is my view, and I realize these countries are all fairly diverse, but has anyone ever opined that this CANZUK scheme might be a bit... racist?

What part is the racist part?

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by NotToScale

What part is the racist part?

The part where they are all multicultural countries

[misher]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes it is not surprising given the perception (largely rooted in historical reality) that the Canadian government for a century or two used immigration as a demographic weapon to marginalize Quebec within Canada and even francophones within Quebec itself.

As such while I'd be surprised if Quebec tried to block this if it ever got any steam, but they'd certainly come to the tables with demands of their own ("sounds great for you guys but what's in it for us?").

Weren’t they selling citizenship with most of the buyers choosing other provinces to settle? Seems like Quebec does the best off immigration. At 3% interest that’s $120k an immigrant=$5.52 Billion. FYI PEI only spends around $2 billion a year so imagine how much cash they could make if they had a similar program.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3886743/quebec-immigrant-investor-program-vancouver/

How over 46,000 wealthy immigrants took a back door into Vancouver and Toronto’s housing markets

That back door is the Quebec Immigrant Investor Program (QIIP).

Established in 1986, it offers permanent residency to international business people with net assets of at least $1.6 million, who make an interest-free investment of $800,000 in la belle province — and the government returns their money after five years.

Applicants are supposed to settle in Quebec.

But data shows just how many of them have ended up elsewhere – leaving Quebec with their investments, other provinces with their health care bills, and cities with flows of foreign capital that have been linked to soaring home prices.

[Dalreg]

Big vote no!

I paid thousands and thousands of dollars to get my residency and citizenship in Australia. You all want in, you all can do it the hard way like me.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by misher

Weren’t they selling citizenship with most of the buyers choosing other provinces to settle? Seems like Quebec does the best off immigration. At 3% interest that’s $120k an immigrant.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3886743/quebec-immigrant-investor-program-vancouver/

That is one isolated very recent example.

Historically Canadian immigration policy has not generally been beneficial to Quebec/francophones.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That is one isolated very recent example.

Historically Canadian immigration policy has not generally been beneficial to Quebec/francophones.

Doing the math they have made $184 million annually since 1986 and that doesn't account for inflation from this alone. Likely more like $300 million annually in today's dollars.

With a population of around 8 million this means each person receives $37.50 a year from immigration. If you directed that money to the homeless only (about 1%) then that's $3,750 for every homeless person which is a very significant subsidy.

I think they've benefited a lot already from it don't you think? Honestly it seems like Quebec has benefited the most from immigration while the other provinces, as usual, have been forced to take on the burden. Honestly Quebec has always been the province best at taking the benefits and making the problems someone else's. Maybe Quebec should be handing over all the money it made off immigrants to the cities forced to house them since they obviously don't end up in Quebec. Less than 10% of the people you sold our citizenship to end up being your burden while 90%+ of the burden becomes ours. If I sound angry its because I am, Quebec constantly abuses Canada by making a quick profit and then sticking us with the burden. Every year you take take take and give us nothing but grief back.

In the mid-1990s, investor immigration to Canada, which came both through Quebec and the cancelled federal Immigrant Investor Program (IIP), was dominated by applicants from Hong Kong and Taiwan.

From 2007 to 2011, the country of last residence for 86.8 per cent of principal applicants to the IIP was in Asia, Australia or the Pacific, according to a federal report.

UBC geographer Daniel Hiebert, who has focused on international migration, said investor immigration is likely now dominated by applicants from Mainland China.

The federal report also showed that investor immigrants are heavily invested in real estate.

This chart shows where immigrant investors who came to Canada via Quebec were located as of 2016:

Seriously one of the biggest reasons I criticize whatnext and others is that they are idiots who focuses on foreigners buying real estate. Foreigners don't buy our real estate, immigrants do. Any foreigner with money can go buy citizenship from Quebec and become an immigrant. If you believe demand from outside Canada has ruined our housing market then the finger can be pointed straight at Quebec for letting that demand in and taking their commission off it.

[kwoldtimer]

I wonder if it's the dreary end of year weather that sets off threads like this? Can another go 'round on annexation of the Turks and Caicos Islands be far behind?

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not saying this is my view, and I realize these countries are all fairly diverse, but has anyone ever opined that this CANZUK scheme might be a bit... racist?

I fully reject the notion that CANZUK is "racist" (in fact, the multiculturalism of the 4 states is one of the many common values that leads me to be pro-CANZUK!) but am conscious of the fact that many people will bring up that accusation. CANZUK International, the main advocacy group for this, has emphasized the non-racism of the movement quite a bit for this reason.

To me, though, the real possibility of CANZUK is that it can move beyond free trade and free movement and become an EU-like polity (or more like what the EU used to be, back when it was the EEC) and single economic zone.

People will say that geography (the fact that the CANZUK states are literally in opposite corners of the world with vast oceans separating them) makes it unworkable, I would actually argue it's the strength. Because of geography, the CANZUK states will always naturally have closer trade relations with their nearby economic superpowers: Canada with the United States, the UK with the EU, and Australia/New Zealand with China. CANZUK would allow each member's existing trade ties to benefit the others. For example, British and Australian business could use Canada to access the American market; Canadian and Australian businesses could use Britain to access the EU market, etc. A CANZUK economic bloc would already be plugged in to all the world's major economies right from the get go and those benefits could be synergized across all 4 countries.

CANZUK could then negotiate varying degrees of free trade deals with the rest of the Commonwealth, including the Anglophone Caribbean, Nigeria, India, etc, activating the historical linkages that already exist.

When you add trade access to these developing countries on top of the synergized links the CANZUK members would have to their nearby economic blocs, you've created a powerful economic and political bloc that would be one of the 21st century's great powers alongside China, the EU, and the USA.

It would provide each country with a mission and purpose and a place in the world, that no one of them really have. We're this awkward American client state, the UK has no clear direction forward post-Brexit, Australia doesn't fit in to any major blocs, etc. CANZUK provides a path forward to deal for all of it. It would be a much fairer relationship for us than the one we have with the Americans: although the UK would be the largest (in both population and economy) of the CANZUK states it would have less than half the total population and so they couldn't dominate it the way the Americans dominate us. On top of that we'd be essential to the group as the ones with the American trade ties. We'd actually matter.

Who would have thought of it: I found a way to make the British Empire relevant again

[misher]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I fully reject the notion that CANZUK is "racist" (in fact, the multiculturalism of the 4 states is one of the many common values that leads me to be pro-CANZUK!) but am conscious of the fact that many people will bring up that accusation. CANZUK International, the main advocacy group for this, has emphasized the non-racism of the movement quite a bit for this reason.

To me, though, the real possibility of CANZUK is that it can move beyond free trade and free movement and become an EU-like polity (or more like what the EU used to be, back when it was the EEC) and single economic zone.

People will say that geography (the fact that the CANZUK states are literally in opposite corners of the world with vast oceans separating them) makes it unworkable, I would actually argue it's the strength. Because of geography, the CANZUK states will always naturally have closer trade relations with their nearby economic superpowers: Canada with the United States, the UK with the EU, and Australia/New Zealand with China. CANZUK would allow each member's existing trade ties to benefit the others. For example, British and Australian business could use Canada to access the American market; Canadian and Australian businesses could use Britain to access the EU market, etc. A CANZUK economic bloc would already be plugged in to all the world's major economies right from the get go and those benefits could be synergized across all 4 countries.

CANZUK could then negotiate varying degrees of free trade deals with the rest of the Commonwealth, including the Anglophone Caribbean, Nigeria, India, etc, activating the historical linkages that already exist.

When you add trade access to these developing countries on top of the synergized links the CANZUK members would have to their nearby economic blocs, you've created a powerful economic and political bloc that would be one of the 21st century's great powers alongside China, the EU, and the USA.

It would provide each country with a mission and purpose and a place in the world, that no one of them really have. We're this awkward American client state, the UK has no clear direction forward post-Brexit, Australia doesn't fit in to any major blocs, etc. CANZUK provides a path forward to deal for all of it. It would be a much fairer relationship for us than the one we have with the Americans: although the UK would be the largest (in both population and economy) of the CANZUK states it would have less than half the total population and so they couldn't dominate it the way the Americans dominate us. On top of that we'd be essential to the group as the ones with the American trade ties. We'd actually matter.

Who would have thought of it: I found a way to make the British Empire relevant again

Technically the commonwealth still exists and it may be easier to just add this to the commonwealth than create a CANZUK. As we all have the same monarch I think its pretty easy to create an EU style union especially if we allow the royalty to mediate disputes. The Commonwealth is a bloc that creates a population 50% that of America. Can you imagine how much we could develop a lot of these tropical islands into vacation paradises? ^^ Realistically many of these small nations are huge economic opportunities for us with a lot of natural resources and development potential. All these nations outside CANZUK have small populations that can barely affect ours besides the 8.6 mil in Papua and 3 million in Jamaica. Those nations have crime and human rights issues. But I'm sure we could figure it out and work together to help solve them. Reading up on Papua New Guinea honestly its an embarrassment to share the same Queen as them and we definitely should be stepping on.

There are 16 Commonwealth realms currently with a combined area (excluding Antarctic claims) of 18.7 million km2 (7.2 million mi2)[1] and a population of around 148 million,[2] of which all but about two million live in the six most populous: the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, and Jamaica.

A Commonwealth realm is a sovereign state[† 1] in which Queen Elizabeth II is the reigning constitutional monarch and head of state. Each realm functions as an independent co-equal kingdom from the other realms. As of 2019, there are 16 Commonwealth realms: Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, and the United Kingdom. All 16 Commonwealth realms are members of the Commonwealth of Nations, an intergovernmental organisation of 53 member states. Elizabeth II is head of the Commonwealth.

And look on the bright side, the sun would never set on CANZUK and our snowbirds would be able to move around easily.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I fully reject the notion that CANZUK is "racist" (in fact, the multiculturalism of the 4 states is one of the many common values that leads me to be pro-CANZUK!) but am conscious of the fact that many people will bring up that accusation. CANZUK International, the main advocacy group for this, has emphasized the non-racism of the movement quite a bit for this reason.

To me, though, the real possibility of CANZUK is that it can move beyond free trade and free movement and become an EU-like polity (or more like what the EU used to be, back when it was the EEC) and single economic zone.

People will say that geography (the fact that the CANZUK states are literally in opposite corners of the world with vast oceans separating them) makes it unworkable, I would actually argue it's the strength. Because of geography, the CANZUK states will always naturally have closer trade relations with their nearby economic superpowers: Canada with the United States, the UK with the EU, and Australia/New Zealand with China. CANZUK would allow each member's existing trade ties to benefit the others. For example, British and Australian business could use Canada to access the American market; Canadian and Australian businesses could use Britain to access the EU market, etc. A CANZUK economic bloc would already be plugged in to all the world's major economies right from the get go and those benefits could be synergized across all 4 countries.

CANZUK could then negotiate varying degrees of free trade deals with the rest of the Commonwealth, including the Anglophone Caribbean, Nigeria, India, etc, activating the historical linkages that already exist.

When you add trade access to these developing countries on top of the synergized links the CANZUK members would have to their nearby economic blocs, you've created a powerful economic and political bloc that would be one of the 21st century's great powers alongside China, the EU, and the USA.

It would provide each country with a mission and purpose and a place in the world, that no one of them really have. We're this awkward American client state, the UK has no clear direction forward post-Brexit, Australia doesn't fit in to any major blocs, etc. CANZUK provides a path forward to deal for all of it. It would be a much fairer relationship for us than the one we have with the Americans: although the UK would be the largest (in both population and economy) of the CANZUK states it would have less than half the total population and so they couldn't dominate it the way the Americans dominate us. On top of that we'd be essential to the group as the ones with the American trade ties. We'd actually matter.

Who would have thought of it: I found a way to make the British Empire relevant again

Great explanation. Don't forget about the combining of military forces to come in 3rd or 4th largest military in the world, behind the USA and China.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Pinus

Great explanation. Don't forget about the combining of military forces to come in 3rd or 4th largest military in the world, behind the USA and China.

Would be interesting how this threatens the US's dominance of NATO. You'd basically be creating two strong powers within the alliance with sometimes competing interests.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by misher

Doing the math they have made $184 million annually since 1986 and that doesn't account for inflation from this alone. Likely more like $300 million annually in today's dollars.

With a population of around 8 million this means each person receives $37.50 a year from immigration. If you directed that money to the homeless only (about 1%) then that's $3,750 for every homeless person which is a very significant subsidy.

I think they've benefited a lot already from it don't you think? Honestly it seems like Quebec has benefited the most from immigration while the other provinces, as usual, have been forced to take on the burden. Honestly Quebec has always been the province best at taking the benefits and making the problems someone else's. Maybe Quebec should be handing over all the money it made off immigrants to the cities forced to house them since they obviously don't end up in Quebec. Less than 10% of the people you sold our citizenship to end up being your burden while 90%+ of the burden becomes ours. If I sound angry its because I am, Quebec constantly abuses Canada by making a quick profit and then sticking us with the burden. Every year you take take take and give us nothing but grief back.







Seriously one of the biggest reasons I criticize whatnext and others is that they are idiots who focuses on foreigners buying real estate. Foreigners don't buy our real estate, immigrants do. Any foreigner with money can go buy citizenship from Quebec and become an immigrant. If you believe demand from outside Canada has ruined our housing market then the finger can be pointed straight at Quebec for letting that demand in and taking their commission off it.

As hard as it might be for some people to imagine, not everything is always about money.

The stuff I am talking about contributed lots of turmoil in Quebec and even for Canada as a whole. We might not have avoided all of the turmoil but it could have been diminished quite a bit.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by Laceoflight

Sincerely. No thanks.
This ensemble would be way too homogeneous to be healthy for minorities such as French Canadians or First Nations...

What?

[kool maudit]

The great Canadian desire to be a province of some larger empire. First we were Britain's golden boy, then the US' resentful stepchild, now this.

[SpongeG]

what? I'd move to Australia in a heartbeat if it was easy

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I fully reject the notion that CANZUK is "racist" (in fact, the multiculturalism of the 4 states is one of the many common values that leads me to be pro-CANZUK!) but am conscious of the fact that many people will bring up that accusation. CANZUK International, the main advocacy group for this, has emphasized the non-racism of the movement quite a bit for this reason.

Just wanted to clarify again that I don't personally think this is racist.

Some may also criticize it for being "first world-ist", as in we'd be favouring people from countries that are already rich (regardless of skin colour, though yes a majority of them would probably still be white) as opposed to people from the developing world.

If the immigration policies and patterns of CANZUK members were adjusted to reflect more of a focus on each other, and away from non-member countries (ie 95% of the world) a bit more than they are currently, it's definitely arguable that the origins of newcomers in all of them would be quite a bit more European than it is today.

[goodgrowth]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just wanted to clarify again that I don't personally think this is racist.

Some may also criticize it for being "first world-ist", as in we'd be favouring people from countries that are already rich (regardless of skin colour, though yes a majority of them would probably still be white) as opposed to people from the developing world.

If the immigration policies and patterns of CANZUK members were adjusted to reflect more of a focus on each other, and away from non-member countries (ie 95% of the world) a bit more than they are currently, it's definitely arguable that the origins of newcomers in all of them would be quite a bit more European than it is today.

I really don't see how free movement pact would suddenly turn immigration policy of these countries into some sort of "whites only policy"...

The net combined population of the member countries would remain stagnant if there isn't continued external immigration.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

I really don't see how free movement pact would suddenly turn immigration policy of these countries into some sort of "whites only policy"...

The net combined population of the member countries would remain stagnant if there isn't continued external immigration.

I never said "whites only" if you read what I wrote. (That's actually pretty much outside the realm of possibility in today's world.)

That said, at the moment, immigrant applicants in (I assume) all of the CANZUK countries aren't given any more consideration due to being from CANZUK than people from Bangladesh or Brazil are.

But if we were to give our CANZUK brethren preferential treatment (as in fast-tracking and being less demanding with their applications) then that might in fact lead to a greater share of immigration movements being between the CANZUK countries. It's actually extremely likely that that would happen. To what degree I have no idea but given the demographics at play this would make the share of white immigrants increase in all of them, I am pretty sure.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I never said "whites only" if you read what I wrote. (That's actually pretty much outside the realm of possibility in today's world.)

That said, at the moment, immigrant applicants in (I assume) all of the CANZUK countries aren't given any more consideration due to being from CANZUK than people from Bangladesh or Brazil are.

But if we were to give our CANZUK brethren preferential treatment (as in fast-tracking and being less demanding with their applications) then that might in fact lead to a greater share of immigration movements being between the CANZUK countries. It's actually extremely likely that that would happen. To what degree I have no idea but given the demographics at play this would make the share of white immigrants increase in all of them, I am pretty sure.

Meh all 4 of us have a ton of immigrants from minorities.
Plus I'm still down for inviting the 2 other major nations of the Commonwealth in (the two where Caucasian isn't the majority) if we set certain rules to prevent mass migration. Jamaica doesn't seem that bad besides the high crime rate? We have a lot of Jamaican immigrants in all 4 nations anyway.

With 2.9 million people,[10][11] Jamaica is the third-most populous Anglophone country in the Americas (after the United States and Canada), and the fourth-most populous country in the Caribbean. Kingston is the country's capital and largest city. The majority of Jamaicans are of African ancestry, with significant European, Chinese, Indian, Lebanese, and mixed-race minorities.[9] Due to a high rate of emigration for work since the 1960s, there is a large Jamaican diaspora, particularly in Canada, the United Kingdom, and the United States. The country has a global influence that belies its small size; it was the birthplace of the Rastafari religion, reggae music (and associated genres such as dub, ska and dancehall), and it is internationally prominent in sports, most notably cricket, sprinting and athletics.[12][13][14]

Jamaica is an upper-middle income country[15] with an economy heavily dependent on tourism, with an average of 4.3 million tourists a year.[16] Politically it is a Commonwealth realm, with Elizabeth II as its queen.[9] Her appointed representative in the country is the Governor-General of Jamaica, an office held by Sir Patrick Allen since 2009. Andrew Holness has served as Prime Minister of Jamaica since March 2016. Jamaica is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy with legislative power vested in the bicameral Parliament of Jamaica, consisting of an appointed Senate and a directly elected House of Representatives.[9]