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  #3721  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2019, 2:14 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post

The Port Mann Bridge toll showed this exact behaviour when a significant number of motorists diverted to the much more heavily congested Patullo bridge. They say time is money, but apparently for a lot of folks it just isn't worth anywhere near as much.
That's because the policy makers make a lot more money for their time than the people who avoid the tolls. Same goes for lining up for retail anything.
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  #3722  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2019, 7:32 AM
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That's because the policy makers make a lot more money for their time than the people who avoid the tolls. Same goes for lining up for retail anything.
Well, sure. When you have to make every penny count and you don't receive very much for an hour of labour, then it makes perfect sense to waste time rather than money.

But the point is that targeted tolls are a very effective way to manage traffic demand. They can change the behaviour of enough people to make a very real difference.
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  #3723  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2019, 11:12 PM
Kisai Kisai is offline
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Bridge tolls surgically target the exact points in the road network that are the bottlenecks. A gas tax won't dissuade someone from using a congested bridge because they've already paid the tax and the bridge trip doesn't cost them any more. But if you can directly associate a cost, even a small one, with use of a choke point then it's surprising how many people will try to avoid it.

The Port Mann Bridge toll showed this exact behaviour when a significant number of motorists diverted to the much more heavily congested Patullo bridge. They say time is money, but apparently for a lot of folks it just isn't worth anywhere near as much.
The ideal (but unpopular) solution is to toll all the bridges and have the toll change depending on the time of day (thus discouraging the very behavior that causes congestion.) That's the same thing done with the existing Skytrain fares.

However a better tech option that doesn't involve making things worse on the roads in the first place is to actually create mandatory vehicle GPS trackers as a condition of having vehicle insurance, which is permanently installed by the dealership or garage.

At that point, ICBC or other insurance provider will query the data log from the tracker when you renew your insurance. Any accident claims, the data must be downloaded. When the vehicle is parked, it downloads/uploads over wireless mesh networks (eg BC Hydro's smart meters) all the data for the day as well as the vehicle performance metrics (so that vehicles that need service and fail to be serviced are removed from the road.) The user could also use their own WiFi devices or "internet equipped" car with the tracker for more real-time feedback.

If the device fails to send/receive data over a period of time (Eg the tracker was disconnected from the CANBUS during servicing) then the insurance company can levy a fine for any "missing mileage" not recorded.

People don't want to be tracked, I get that. However the carrot for doing so is much bigger than the benefits for opting out.

- Vehicle theft, makes it nearly impossible to steal a tracked vehicle without damaging it.
- Crime reduction. People are less likely to commit smaller crimes if they believe they are being monitored. This covers everything from smuggling to speeding/DWI.
- Reducing in insurance costs by transferring the costs to people who are more careless with more expensive vehicles.

For government and law enforcement it also provides an easy revenue source as a consequence. If you don't want people speeding through school and construction zones, you can nail people who frequently do so, within the day it happens. If people are running red lights, failing to stop at stop signs, and so forth, you can "encourage" them to stop doing so by having AI analyze their driving pattern, and sending fines to those that are careless drivers.

Then when people are "well trained" the automated drivers could be deployed based on those driving analysis.

Like the average driver is really a rather poor driver. Think about how many times you see people do rolling stops half way into intersections or U-turns when both are illegal.
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  #3724  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 5:17 AM
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...to actually create mandatory vehicle GPS trackers as a condition of having vehicle insurance, which is permanently installed by the dealership or garage.
nope, 100% no. i would rip that thing out 100%. government forced tracking on people? may as well well change our name to China 2.0 at that point.
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  #3725  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 5:29 AM
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All you really need is an card reader attached to every dash and a series of gates on the highways; drive past one, it charges you $2-5 depending on the time of day.
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  #3726  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 6:19 AM
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Which is already in use in other major cities around the planet. It's cheaper to deploy, manage and enforce compared to putting a GPS on every car registered in the lower mainland and dealing with concessions for out-of-region vehicles NOT required to use the system/too old to support the basic device.
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  #3727  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 6:47 AM
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Keep in mind that some people really can’t work without a car though, i.e. plumber, construction worker. Make sure to give them tax credits for tolls. That’s if we are gonna toll every single crossing, which personally I’m against.
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  #3728  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 8:05 AM
WestCoastEcho WestCoastEcho is offline
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Keep in mind that some people really can’t work without a car though, i.e. plumber, construction worker. Make sure to give them tax credits for tolls. That’s if we are gonna toll every single crossing, which personally I’m against.
Unless said tolls are cheap; say, $2 per crossing for cars and small trucks, with a weekly maximum of $20.

And if you use your personal vehicle for work, your company should reimburse you for the use of your car anyways, and there are allowable vehicle expenses that can be filed anyways at tax time:
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/...es/allowable-motor-vehicle-expenses.html
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  #3729  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 8:14 AM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Keep in mind that some people really can’t work without a car though, i.e. plumber, construction worker. Make sure to give them tax credits for tolls. That’s if we are gonna toll every single crossing, which personally I’m against.
I'm not 100% sure I think that's a good idea. We don't, for example, exempt tradespeople from paying gas taxes or licensing fees, why should congestion charges be any different? Tradespeople and businesses have the ability to deduct business expenses on their tax returns, and they can also recoup their costs from their clients. That's in contrast to people with low income who were choosing to sit in congestion on the Patullo because they decided the Port Mann tolls were too onerous.

Of all bridge users, businesses and tradespeople should be among those most in support of congestion charges because for them time really is money and it would make their trips a lot more reliable.
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  #3730  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MIPS View Post
Which is already in use in other major cities around the planet. It's cheaper to deploy, manage and enforce compared to putting a GPS on every car registered in the lower mainland and dealing with concessions for out-of-region vehicles NOT required to use the system/too old to support the basic device.
Please cite 1 North American city that employs this type of technology.
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  #3731  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 3:58 PM
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Bridge and tunnel tolls are still the easiest thing to implement given today's technology and our geography.

They aren't perfectly fair, but a small fee at all crossings would do a ton to curb congestion, and allow us to focus expansion where it is actually warranted.
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  #3732  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho View Post
Unless said tolls are cheap; say, $2 per crossing for cars and small trucks, with a weekly maximum of $20.

And if you use your personal vehicle for work, your company should reimburse you for the use of your car anyways, and there are allowable vehicle expenses that can be filed anyways at tax time:
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/...es/allowable-motor-vehicle-expenses.html
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
I'm not 100% sure I think that's a good idea. We don't, for example, exempt tradespeople from paying gas taxes or licensing fees, why should congestion charges be any different? Tradespeople and businesses have the ability to deduct business expenses on their tax returns, and they can also recoup their costs from their clients. That's in contrast to people with low income who were choosing to sit in congestion on the Patullo because they decided the Port Mann tolls were too onerous.

Of all bridge users, businesses and tradespeople should be among those most in support of congestion charges because for them time really is money and it would make their trips a lot more reliable.
My bad I forgot that company reimbursement is a thing.
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  #3733  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Bridge and tunnel tolls are still the easiest thing to implement given today's technology and our geography.

They aren't perfectly fair, but a small fee at all crossings would do a ton to curb congestion, and allow us to focus expansion where it is actually warranted.
The reason bridge and tunnel tolls are appropriate is because bridges and tunnels are choke points, and the purpose of the toll is to relieve congestion. People who live on the other side of bridges or tunnels from where they work have made a conscious choice to deal with those kinds of issues. The cost of housing may not make this an entirely voluntary choice, but such is life in the big city...
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  #3734  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 6:36 PM
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Can’t you just attach the congestion charge to people’s odometers?
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  #3735  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 7:59 PM
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Can’t you just attach the congestion charge to people’s odometers?
There are methods that work similarly - not using the odometer itself, but something similar. However, the 'how' is not the big problem. That's finding politicians willing to risk losing an election having introduced some form of road pricing. Oregon offers a reduced gas tax to drivers using their system. It isn't used yet to discourage driving at different times of day, or on specific routes. Not many volunteers signed up initially, and it's possible to use the system without a GPS component, which would have made the program even less attractive.

From the Financial Times "The US state of Oregon has been one of the pioneers in testing road-charging technologies, running pilot schemes to see whether a per-mile charge could plug the gap in the state’s road budget and, perhaps, manage congestion. The state’s most recent experiment uses a transparent green plastic dongle that is plugged into the diagnostics port that is obligatory on all modern US vehicles. The dongle gathers information from the car computer about the distance it has driven and the fuel consumed, which is then used to calculate the road-user charge.

Instead of paying Oregon’s 30 cents a gallon fuel tax, drivers enrolled in the scheme pay 1.5 cents per mile driven. They receive a monthly rebate or are presented with an invoice depending on whether their road-charging bill is higher or lower than the tax paid.

Oregon’s main motivation is replacing fuel-tax revenues. However, versions of its cheap, simple technology with a global positioning system (GPS) locator could also be used to levy differential charges in busier areas at peak times of day as a way to tackle jams."

OReGo is still in operation - now 1.7c per mile.
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  #3736  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Bridge and tunnel tolls are still the easiest thing to implement given today's technology and our geography.

They aren't perfectly fair, but a small fee at all crossings would do a ton to curb congestion, and allow us to focus expansion where it is actually warranted.
Luckily this terrible idea will never happen
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  #3737  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 8:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
Can’t you just attach the congestion charge to people’s odometers?
If you did that it wouldn't be a congestion charge - it would be just like the motor vehicle fuel tax, except that it would capture electric vehicles too.

The whole point of a congestion charge is that vehicles pay only when they are causing congestion problems - typically during rush hour - and don't pay anything if traffic is light and the trip is not inconveniencing others. This creates an incentive for drivers to make their trip at non-peak times or use a less congested route.

The much hated port man bridge toll did neither of these things. It just encouraged drives to use the more congested Patullo bridge, at all times of day and night.
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  #3738  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 8:58 PM
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  #3739  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 10:07 PM
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Luckily this terrible idea will never happen
Nice troll post. Obviously it has happened here before and is a regular occurrence around the developed world.
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  #3740  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2019, 11:52 PM
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Nice troll post. Obviously it has happened here before and is a regular occurrence around the developed world.
A fee at all crossings won’t happen and never has. Can you imagine slapping a toll on the oak street bridge or the lions gate or the dinsmore. Those decrepit pieces of infrastructure will never get tolled. Only implementing a toll on brand new infrastructure makes sense. Nice try though
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