Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Council will be voting again once a new site is found by the proponents of the project. The vote today was essentially to continue considering the proposal of the municipality funding the project with $20M. I appreciate your enthusiasm but this process is far from completed.

Yes, we get that, as well as your renowned penchant for countering any type of good CFL news with something negative. Duly noted.

Personally, I think it is a victory to get this city council to not fully take the coward's way out. If they fully explore this thing and it doesn't work out, great, I'm happy. Until then, before you pull the pin (like they have several times in the past), explore every avenue. If the ownership group can't negotiate something beneficial to all, again too bad, but at least negotiate.

[esquire]

Considering that the fairly modest THF cost $145 million over 5 years ago, it will be curious to see what kind of facility the proponents in Halifax can build for $120 million. I'm imagining a very modest stadium, basically something along the lines of pre-expansion BMO.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

Yes, we get that, as well as your renowned penchant for countering any type of good CFL news with something negative. Duly noted.

I've never been against a stadium being built in Halifax - i'm mostly skeptical of the finances surrounding this proposal, and the cost/benefit of the municipality funding it. Halifax, as a city, would be better off building a stadium with the municipality as the lead rather than with this proponent as the lead for a number of reasons which have been repeated on this forum previously.

As the CAO and city staff pointed out in their report, the economics and proposals from the proponents for the economic viability of a CFL franchise in Halifax are, in their words, aggressive. It's something that myself and others have pointed out previously. The team in Halifax would have to outperform every other team in the CFL, except for Saskatchewan, on an attendance-per-capita basis in order to meet the financials put forward by the Halifax proponents.

Originally Posted by esquire

Considering that the fairly modest THF cost $145 million over 5 years ago, it will be curious to see what kind of facility the proponents in Halifax can build for $120 million. I'm imagining a very modest stadium, basically something along the lines of pre-expansion BMO.

It seems that way at this stage but without a location or any other details we're still in the dark.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Considering that the fairly modest THF cost $145 million over 5 years ago, it will be curious to see what kind of facility the proponents in Halifax can build for $120 million. I'm imagining a very modest stadium, basically something along the lines of pre-expansion BMO.

Which is OK for Halifax and the CFL if it was OK for MLS in Toronto, no?

[esquire]

^ It's tough to sell tickets and generate enough revenue if a stadium is too barebones. It didn't take long for Toronto to spend a pile on upgrading BMO.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Which is OK for Halifax and the CFL if it was OK for MLS in Toronto, no?

It wasn't a CFL stadium when it was first built. I don't even think it had 20,000 seats when it first opened, and it cost over $70 million including land almost 15 years ago.

[king10]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

It wasn't a CFL stadium when it was first built. I don't even think it had 20,000 seats when it first opened, and it cost over $70 million including land almost 15 years ago.

It had 20,000 seats.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's tough to sell tickets and generate enough revenue if a stadium is too barebones. It didn't take long for Toronto to spend a pile on upgrading BMO.

That's especially true in a large city like Toronto where people are to some degree "spoiled" by pro sports options but I think that in a place like Halifax it would probably do the trick initially. It should be easily offset by the novelty of simply having a pro football team in town.

Then if the Schooners play their cards right, demonstrating their viability and becoming a local fixture, eventually they can make upgrades to their stadium.

Which is essentially what TFC did in Toronto.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

It wasn't a CFL stadium when it was first built. .

I know BMO was not a CFL stadium initially.

That was not my point.

My point was that if a bare-bones stadium was deemed OK for MLS (which has "Major League" in its name and is American, which gives some people hard-ons) in as big a city as Toronto, then a bare-bones stadium for the CFL (seen by many people as a lesser property than MLS) in a much smaller city like Halifax, should be fine.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's especially true in a large city like Toronto where people are to some degree "spoiled" by pro sports options but I think that in a place like Halifax it would probably do the trick initially. It should be easily offset by the novelty of simply having a pro football team in town.

Then if the Schooners play their cards right, demonstrating their viability and becoming a local fixture, eventually they can make upgrades to their stadium.

Which is essentially what TFC did in Toronto.

I agree.

Canadian football is quite definitely a "thing" in central NS and southern NB. Football is the principle high school sport in this part of the Maritimes. There is a built in base of support. This, and the novelty of having an actual major league mainstream sports franchise in the region will make the Schooners a viable entity.

I know some Torontonians will take umbrage to the concept of the CFL being a "major league" sport, but in the RoC, this is indeed the case..........

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's especially true in a large city like Toronto where people are to some degree "spoiled" by pro sports options but I think that in a place like Halifax it would probably do the trick initially. It should be easily offset by the novelty of simply having a pro football team in town.

Then if the Schooners play their cards right, demonstrating their viability and becoming a local fixture, eventually they can make upgrades to their stadium.

Which is essentially what TFC did in Toronto.

Yeah, fair enough. That's the model that many CFL teams followed too... playing in small and somewhat modest stadiums and then expanding them gradually through the 20th century (Hamilton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, Calgary).

I would just hate to see the whole undertaking doomed by taking an excessively thrifty approach to the stadium.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, fair enough. That's the model that many CFL teams followed too... playing in small and somewhat modest stadiums and then expanding them gradually through the 20th century (Hamilton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, Calgary).

I would just hate to see the whole undertaking doomed by taking an excessively thrifty approach to the stadium.

There is a risk but IMO it is pretty minimal.

If I am your average life-long Haligonian just the thought of having a 20-25,000 seat stadium in my city, even if bare-bones, is going to impress me at least a little.

Add a pro football team in there and I am probably not going to quibble much at all about the venue - at least not a first when it is still fairly new.

Remember the BC Lions played in a pop-up stadium about 10 years ago while they were renovating BC Place? It didn't look that bad and I'd assume a more permanent 100 million dollar Halifax stadium would be a lot better than that.

[megadude]

Can someone please explain to me how any stadium beyond high school can be built without endzone seating? There are quite a few in lower US college and I kind of expect it for CIS since it's not much higher than high school.

Having what is essentially wrap around seating adds to the atmosphere. And I understand that it's hard to have a tall grandstand in the endzone, but what's stopping any stadium from having at least 10 rows of seating in the endzone and maybe some kind of backdrop behind that to create a wrap around effect so we don't end up seeing the parking lot or passing cars on the highway in the background?

That render of the Hali stadium in the most basic form looks awful for CFL. Can some of the sideline seating be sacrificed to add endzone seating? Or like some have mentioned, can there be a patio or pavilion in the endzone with a backdrop or scoreboard to eliminate that void?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...sday-1.5312219

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by megadude

Can someone please explain to me how any stadium beyond high school can be built without endzone seating? There are quite a few in lower US college and I kind of expect it for CIS since it's not much higher than high school.

Having what is essentially wrap around seating adds to the atmosphere. And I understand that it's hard to have a tall grandstand in the endzone, but what's stopping any stadium from having at least 10 rows of seating in the endzone and maybe some kind of backdrop behind that to create a wrap around effect so we don't end up seeing the parking lot or passing cars on the highway in the background?

That render of the Hali stadium in the most basic form looks awful for CFL. Can some of the sideline seating be sacrificed to add endzone seating? Or like some have mentioned, can there be a patio or pavilion in the endzone with a backdrop or scoreboard to eliminate that void?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...sday-1.5312219

Endzone seats are usually the cheapest and bring in very little revenue. Sideline seating has much better sightlines and where most fans want to sit.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by megadude

Can someone please explain to me how any stadium beyond high school can be built without endzone seating? There are quite a few in lower US college and I kind of expect it for CIS since it's not much higher than high school.

Having what is essentially wrap around seating adds to the atmosphere. And I understand that it's hard to have a tall grandstand in the endzone, but what's stopping any stadium from having at least 10 rows of seating in the endzone and maybe some kind of backdrop behind that to create a wrap around effect so we don't end up seeing the parking lot or passing cars on the highway in the background?

That render of the Hali stadium in the most basic form looks awful for CFL. Can some of the sideline seating be sacrificed to add endzone seating? Or like some have mentioned, can there be a patio or pavilion in the endzone with a backdrop or scoreboard to eliminate that void?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...sday-1.5312219

I agree. There is nothing I hate more than seeing a replay of a player catching a ball in the end zone, with some guy walking his dog down a residential street in the background.

[megadude]

True enough about the lack of appeal for a fan to sit in endzone seating and it being cheaper. But I feel like it's necessary to create a better atmosphere and therefore keep all fans happy and coming back.

For me personally, I don't mind at all sitting within spitting distance in the endzone from time to time. For football or soccer. You get to see the action on that end close up and you get it for cheaper.

I have good memories of sitting row 2 at Michigan State and row 3 at TFC. And in the Rock Pile in Buffalo. Or row 5 for a Marlies game.

The closest I ever sat for the Raps was row 18 behind the basket, but that was too far for being at the end for me to enjoy like the others.

[megadude]

LOL. Ya come to think of it, it looks worse when they show the replays, almost always from a different angle than the live feed and that amplifies that amateurishness of it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by megadude

LOL. Ya come to think of it, it looks worse when they show the replays, almost always from a different angle than the live feed and that amplifies that amateurishness of it.

Yeah, replays are bad for that in some CFL stadiums. The main camera angle from the middle of the grandstand is usually OK though.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Endzone seats are usually the cheapest and bring in very little revenue. Sideline seating has much better sightlines and where most fans want to sit.

It's interesting, when you look at old newspaper clippings from the 60s and 70s when CFL stadiums were going through a major growth phase, there was often reference made to the percentage of seats being between the goal lines... teams would boast that 90% of seats or whatever were between the goal lines, to the point where most CFL stadiums of that era were almost entirely seats along the sidelines - the only exceptions were the stadiums that were designed to handle MLB, so basically Montreal, Toronto (Exhibition) and Vancouver. It wasn't surprising considering that endzones in those days were still 25 yards deep which put seats back there pretty far from the action.

Things changed over the years, and I'm pretty sure the influence of the NFL had a lot to do with it. With bigger stadiums in general and smaller endzones, seating sections in that area were typically much bigger in NFL stadiums. So the wrap around type seating became the gold standard. It was to the point that when the new Winnipeg stadium was first pitched in the mid 2000s, the main proponent David Asper specifically mentioned a full bowl as a selling point - gone were the days of trying to cram in as many seats as possible between the goal lines.

Personally I think some endzone seating is good to provide some atmosphere, but seating in both endzones is excessive. The best model IMO is Commonwealth Stadium where the vast majority of seats is between the goal lines, but there is at least some end zone seating to make the place feel enclosed. The Hamilton model with club seating/patios in the endzones is also fine.

I don't know how realistic the Halifax rendering is, but I think it's decent... having two grandstands along with something in one end zone (either a small grandstand or some kind of patio deck) should prevent it from looking too wide open.


(On another note, interestingly, end zone seats in Winnipeg are not the cheapest despite having IMO the worst views and being pretty well the only unsheltered seats in the entire joint...)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by megadude

True enough about the lack of appeal for a fan to sit in endzone seating and it being cheaper. But I feel like it's necessary to create a better atmosphere and therefore keep all fans happy and coming back.

For me personally, I don't mind at all sitting within spitting distance in the endzone from time to time. For football or soccer. You get to see the action on that end close up and you get it for cheaper.

I have good memories of sitting row 2 at Michigan State and row 3 at TFC. And in the Rock Pile in Buffalo. Or row 5 for a Marlies game.

The closest I ever sat for the Raps was row 18 behind the basket, but that was too far for being at the end for me to enjoy like the others.

It doesn't matter that much if they don't generate significant revenue - just make them cheap seats for kids and start building your next generation of fans there. It still helps the atmosphere in the stadium as you say and looks a lot better on TV.

As a kid I sat in end zone cheap seats all the time. Then as an older teen and young adult I became a season ticket holder in the more expensive sections.

This is loyalty building 101.