Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it? - Page 46

blacktrojan3921 · #**901** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 9:42 AM**

I'll just throw in my two cents. Obviously, despite what politicians in the west would say, the Equalization payments are a non-factor, as a lot of people in this forum already explained in this forum how they work and why they are necessary.

Now as for oil, that is tricky. Should be weaning off oil? Yes of course, but the reality is that, despite what some people have stated, there isn't likely going to be "Peak Oil", nor a gradual decrease in the usage of oil as time goes on.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-oil-d...-when-will-oil-demand-peak-idUSKCN1M01TC

The simple reality is that fossil fuels, in general, are an integral part of how modern society functions, and not just in the usage of fuel; a lot of shit is made from oil (including plastics). What's more, is that with the development of carbon capture and storage ramping up (Boundary Dam, Carbon Engineering), this will allow us as humans to continue usage of oil while leaving a zero emissions footprint.

Now in relation to Alberta; the oilsands aren't likely to make a big comeback like in the heyday, even with sudden approvals of pipelines and ports. What people forget is that part of the reason why the Eastern provinces generally get their oil from places like the U.S. and Saudi Arabia is because A), it's cheaper to refine, and B) because it requires less energy to refine these oils into consumable fuel unlike bitumen, they produce less carbon and are more ecological and efficient.

Razor · #**902** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 1:22 PM**

A little off the original topic, but re: getting off oil completely.
Am I being cynical to suggest that if all we had were electric cars, we would be subsequently be gouged and electricity rates may jump up because of it monoplozing how we power our vehicles?.How about the batteries? In the near future, when more and more electric vehicles become cheaper and affordable, would the competition between big oil and hydro actually drive costs down through competition..Would OPEC drop prices just to stay relevant, and will car manufactures still produce both types of engines?.Crystal ball anyone?

milomilo · #**903** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 2:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by blacktrojan3921

Now in relation to Alberta; the oilsands aren't likely to make a big comeback like in the heyday, even with sudden approvals of pipelines and ports. What people forget is that part of the reason why the Eastern provinces generally get their oil from places like the U.S. and Saudi Arabia is because A), it's cheaper to refine, and B) because it requires less energy to refine these oils into consumable fuel unlike bitumen, they produce less carbon and are more ecological and efficient.

It's really just the first of those reasons, and only partially - it's cheaper to transport it there and, yes, cheaper to refine too. While it is more energy efficient to refine, the refiners don't care about that directly (they have plenty of heat available), only the impact on the cost.

Eastern refineries use imported oil because it is the cheapest option - something that free market capitalists should wholeheartedly support. It is cheaper to import and refine imported oil than build a 3000km pipeline through all sorts of terrain and people's land. The Albertan oil can then go a shorter distance to places it is competitive. Ideally, it would go the shortest distance to sea and then go wherever, but we haven't got there yet.

milomilo · #**904** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 2:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

A little of the original topic, but re: getting off oil completely.
Am I being cynical to suggest that if all we had were electric cars, we would be subsequently be gouged and electricity rates may jump up because of it monoplozing how we power our vehicles?.How about the batteries? In the near future, when more and more electric vehicles become cheaper and affordable, would the competition between big oil and hydro actually drive costs down through competition..Would OPEC drop prices just to stay relevant, and will car manufactures still produce both types of engines?.Crystal ball anyone?

It's not being gouged, but yes, once electric vehicles start taking over that lost revenue will need to be replaced. Gas taxes are currently reasonably fair, as they are roughly proportional to the usage of the roads. And yes, if demand does fall for oil, then the price will drop, itself moderating the switch to EVs. Ideally that price room would be filled by carbon taxes.

Razor · #**905** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 4:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's not being gouged, but yes, once electric vehicles start taking over that lost revenue will need to be replaced. Gas taxes are currently reasonably fair, as they are roughly proportional to the usage of the roads. And yes, if demand does fall for oil, then the price will drop, itself moderating the switch to EVs. Ideally that price room would be filled by carbon taxes.

Not so much home charging of EV's..I was thinking more of future charging stations upping the price to almost be inline with what we pay for fuel now, or fuel dropping so that they would both be equal.Call me cynical..

milomilo · #**906** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 4:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Not so much home charging of EV's..I was thinking more of future charging stations upping the price to almost be inline with what we pay for fuel now, or fuel dropping so that they would both be equal.Call me cynical..

Well if those charging stations pay the same price for electricity as everyone else, then if they tried to gouge it would just allow a cheaper station to take the market, or people would just charge at home. If the government needs revenue, then another form of tax will be required as there is going to be no way of distinguishing electricity going into an EV. Maybe increased registration fees, maybe distance based taxation...

Of course, we'll need much more electricity generation too.

WarrenC12 · #**907** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 4:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by blacktrojan3921

Now as for oil, that is tricky. Should be weaning off oil? Yes of course, but the reality is that, despite what some people have stated, there isn't likely going to be "Peak Oil", nor a gradual decrease in the usage of oil as time goes on.

Really? We are going to see increases forever? You sure about that?

WarrenC12 · #**908** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 5:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

A little off the original topic, but re: getting off oil completely.
Am I being cynical to suggest that if all we had were electric cars, we would be subsequently be gouged and electricity rates may jump up because of it monoplozing how we power our vehicles?.How about the batteries? In the near future, when more and more electric vehicles become cheaper and affordable, would the competition between big oil and hydro actually drive costs down through competition..Would OPEC drop prices just to stay relevant, and will car manufactures still produce both types of engines?.Crystal ball anyone?

Oil and gas is an entrenched, powerful industry, that has already been broken up over monopolization (Standard Oil), and has powerful government interests to ensure it remains where it is. It also has basically insurmountable barriers to entry.

Electricity on the other hand, is almost always more heavily government regulated, including setting prices, and is often a Crown corporation in places like BC and Quebec.

Further, you can power your own EV off the grid if things actually get that bad. Through batteries and localized power generation.

Mister F · #**909** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 5:27 PM**

Most EV drivers can charge their cars at home in the overnight off peak period and then get through their day without plugging in at all. Charging stations are useful for longer distances, but most driving is within the range of the car. In an electric future we won't rely on charging stations nearly as much as we currently rely on gas stations.

Razor · #**910** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 6:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F

Most EV drivers can charge their cars at home in the overnight off peak period and then get through their day without plugging in at all. Charging stations are useful for longer distances, but most driving is within the range of the car. In an electric future we won't rely on charging stations nearly as much as we currently rely on gas stations.

The government will ensure that they get their paws in there to make up for the lost tax revenue that fueling up conventionally gives them.
Maybe they will mandate a separate meter and plug for home use. I can see the upside to EV being the environment and the carbon footprint being reduced significantly which is definitely huge, but people are kidding themselves if they think that EV will be ultimately cheaper then fuel. The government will figure it out.

milomilo · #**911** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 6:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

The government will ensure that they get their paws in there to make up for the lost tax revenue that fueling up conventionally gives them.
Maybe they will mandate a separate meter and plug for home use. I can see the upside to EV being the environment and the carbon footprint being reduced significantly which is definitely huge, but people are kidding themselves if they think that EV will be ultimately cheaper then fuel. The government will figure it out.

It's a misrepresentation to say 'getting their paws in there'. Roads and other car infrastructure need to be paid for. Is it fairer they are paid for entirely through general taxation, or should at least some be paid for by the users of the infrastructure?

lubicon · #**912** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 7:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

How would leaving multi-national energy companies in control of our vital resources be better for national energy security?

Not entirely sure what you are meaning here, but if the point is that multi national energy companies would control our resources that is not true. Most of the multi nationals have exited Canada or downsized significantly, our resources are managed mainly by home grown Canadian operators.

WarrenC12 · #**913** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 7:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lubicon

Not entirely sure what you are meaning here, but if the point is that multi national energy companies would control our resources that is not true. Most of the multi nationals have exited Canada or downsized significantly, our resources are managed mainly by home grown Canadian operators.

Just indulging a conspiracy theorist on his wild claims of oil supply stability.

WarrenC12 · #**914** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 7:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's a misrepresentation to say 'getting their paws in there'. Roads and other car infrastructure need to be paid for. Is it fairer they are paid for entirely through general taxation, or should at least some be paid for by the users of the infrastructure?

Gas tax revenue does provide a source of funds for the government, but they aren't dedicated to road maintenance as far as I know. They just go into General Revenue, then the Ministry of Transportation has a budget that is unrelated to how much gas tax is collected.

Depending on where you live, electricity is 1/6 to 1/4 of the price of gasoline to go the same distance. They could add 100% taxation to vehicle electricity and it would still be a deal for consumers.

It would make more sense to add 1-2% to a general sales tax, which would more than make up the revenue I'm sure.

misher · #**915** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 7:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Gas tax revenue does provide a source of funds for the government, but they aren't dedicated to road maintenance as far as I know. They just go into General Revenue, then the Ministry of Transportation has a budget that is unrelated to how much gas tax is collected.

Depending on where you live, electricity is 1/6 to 1/4 of the price of gasoline to go the same distance. They could add 100% taxation to vehicle electricity and it would still be a deal for consumers.

It would make more sense to add 1-2% to a general sales tax, which would more than make up the revenue I'm sure.

Seems like this would hurt a lot of energy intense businesses, hurt the poor who bike, and kill the crypto/database industry.

I’m not sure how we would be able to makeup for the lost tax revenue. A tax on electric car owners?

milomilo · #**916** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 7:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Gas tax revenue does provide a source of funds for the government, but they aren't dedicated to road maintenance as far as I know. They just go into General Revenue, then the Ministry of Transportation has a budget that is unrelated to how much gas tax is collected.

Depending on where you live, electricity is 1/6 to 1/4 of the price of gasoline to go the same distance. They could add 100% taxation to vehicle electricity and it would still be a deal for consumers.

It would make more sense to add 1-2% to a general sales tax, which would more than make up the revenue I'm sure.

Gas tax revenue isn't dedicated to roads, no, but then again cigarette taxes aren't dedicated to health either. It's still better to have some taxation on things that cost a disproportionate amount though. EVs will still have a cost to the government, and we'll still want to discourage over use of personal vehicles, so taxing the use of them will make sense.

WarrenC12 · #**917** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 8:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by misher

Seems like this would hurt a lot of energy intense businesses, hurt the poor who bike, and kill the crypto/database industry.

I’m not sure how we would be able to makeup for the lost tax revenue. A tax on electric car owners?

What on earth are you talking about?

milomilo · #**918** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 8:40 PM**

He must have missed where you said vehicle electricity.

WarrenC12 · #**919** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 8:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomilo

He must have missed where you said vehicle electricity.

You'd think a low tax libertarian like misher would be happy that we would be getting rid of high gas taxes. The government can suck it up and reduce their spending, amirite?

SHOFEAR · #**920** Posted **Dec 5, 2019, 8:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's a misrepresentation to say 'getting their paws in there'. Roads and other car infrastructure need to be paid for. Is it fairer they are paid for entirely through general taxation, or should at least some be paid for by the users of the infrastructure?

If "car" infrastructure is now user pay, then I hope all other transportation infrastructure is user pay as well.

Let me check a box on my tax form where my dollars go to please. I'm pretty confident, car infrastructure would come out the big winner.