Roundabouts in HRM

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Hopefully for nostalgia, they call it the Mic Mac Rotary lol. I was so disappointed the first time I drove back to Dartmouth as an adult to see the rotary gone and replaced by an overpass lol.

I didn’t know you grew up in Halifax.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I didn’t know you grew up in Halifax.

I didn't. But my dad (who wasn't with my mom anymore by then) was transferred there in the Forces when I was 11, so I spent a lot of time there when I was young. I haven't been back in almost 15 years (my dad moved to London almost 10 years ago and spent summers here several years before that), but still think of it as my second home.

[Keith P.]

You won't be disappointed once this disaster gets constructed. The backups inbound will be enormous.

[ns_kid]

Dartmouth roundabout gets council's OK

I must confess this decision leaves me frustrated. I'm all for spending whatever's necessary to make this road safer. But it seems to me this plan is a red herring, and misses the mark....by about a kilometre.

I don't live in this area now -- though I grew up nearby -- but I commuted through this intersection daily for many years. I have to say I never witnessed the carnage alleged by Councillor Austin...certainly no more than at a dozen other intersections I could name. (It is true enough that if you are exiting the 111 eastbound at exit 4 and need to get into the left-turning lane for MicMac Blvd it can at times be nerve-wracking.)

But the death trap on this stretch of road is just a few hundred metres further north, where westbound traffic leaves the 111 at exit 4S and is immediately merging with southbound traffic attempting to access the 111 on-ramp from the 118 (exit 11), a distance of about 150 metres. This too was part of my daily commute, and I witnessed (and was sometimes part of) numerous near-misses. This is not the only such configuration in the region but it is the worst, in my opinion.

When I left Ottawa 25 years ago the province and the city were in the midst of a multi-million dollar effort to eliminate every one of these dangerous conflicts on highway 417 through that city. I am astonished that we are still living with them.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You won't be disappointed once this disaster gets constructed. The backups inbound will be enormous.

My money is on this improving traffic flow for vehicles on Woodland, and increasing wait times for those on Lancaster / Mic Mac.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Hopefully for nostalgia, they call it the Mic Mac Rotary lol. I was so disappointed the first time I drove back to Dartmouth as an adult to see the rotary gone and replaced by an overpass lol.

LOL... the Mic Mac Rotary does not hold a lot of positive nostalgia for those who had to traverse it during rush hour every day...

But, just for nostalgia's sake, here are a few pics from the Halifax Municipal Archives :

Lake Banook and Mic Mac Rotary [aerial photograph]
[197-?] (101-80C-1-4-H-60):


Lake Banook, east of Sullivan's Pond [aerial photograph]
Sept. 2, 1963, (101-80C-1-5-3030):


Mic Mac Rotary [aerial photograph]
[196-?] (101-80C-1-3-4):


Mic Mac Rotary [aerial photograph]
[between 1972 and 1976] (101-80C-1-4-H-56):


Mic Mac Rotary [aerial photograph]
Sept. 2, 1963, (101-80C-1-5-3033):



And as a bonus, for your listening pleasure, is a song written about the Mic Mac Rotary. I'm amazed that it exists online, as I recall the local radio stations playing it at the time, but didn't think any copies would have remained:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTe4lfITphE

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Dartmouth roundabout gets council's OK

I must confess this decision leaves me frustrated. I'm all for spending whatever's necessary to make this road safer. But it seems to me this plan is a red herring, and misses the mark....by about a kilometre.

I don't live in this area now -- though I grew up nearby -- but I commuted through this intersection daily for many years. I have to say I never witnessed the carnage alleged by Councillor Austin...certainly no more than at a dozen other intersections I could name. (It is true enough that if you are exiting the 111 eastbound at exit 4 and need to get into the left-turning lane for MicMac Blvd it can at times be nerve-wracking.)

But the death trap on this stretch of road is just a few hundred metres further north, where westbound traffic leaves the 111 at exit 4S and is immediately merging with southbound traffic attempting to access the 111 on-ramp from the 118 (exit 11), a distance of about 150 metres. This too was part of my daily commute, and I witnessed (and was sometimes part of) numerous near-misses. This is not the only such configuration in the region but it is the worst, in my opinion.

When I left Ottawa 25 years ago the province and the city were in the midst of a multi-million dollar effort to eliminate every one of these dangerous conflicts on highway 417 through that city. I am astonished that we are still living with them.

Agreed. I am continually confounded that there seems to be no effort to improve these, though I wonder if they fall under provincial jurisdiction, rather than municipal.

Google view of the area you've described:
https://goo.gl/maps/pPbD6Xb12Aq8z9sE6

And, in addition, here are two of my "favourites":

Merging from the on ramp to the 111 from Victoria road - find a gap and floor it while others are going to the off ramp to Victoria:
https://goo.gl/maps/3P7Wvq9DcB2UWsVk6

Another one that is a "joy" - trying to exit the 102 north to Sackville, while others are coming from the 101 and merging onto the 102. Watch to see who is coming around on the on-ramp, check your mirror to make sure nobody is bearing down on you at 110 km/h while you are slowing down to a crawl to fit in a slot with those vehicles exiting the on ramp:
https://goo.gl/maps/VXUwHcF9XgnKaruy9

[IanWatson]

Cool photos! Anyone recall what was that facility where the Superstore is now located?

[JET]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Hopefully for nostalgia, they call it the Mic Mac Rotary lol. I was so disappointed the first time I drove back to Dartmouth as an adult to see the rotary gone and replaced by an overpass lol.

"The rotary was removed during a redesign of the intersection in the late 1980s which saw it replaced by the "Micmac Parclo", which consists of a series of overpasses and controlled access lanes. The resulting roadway through the Parclo and across Lake Micmac to the interchange with Highway 118 is the widest in Atlantic Canada at 10-12 lanes." Widest in Canada, that's neat.

"The Micmac Rotary was notorious for rush hour congestion, even resulting in the recording of a song entitled "Mic Mac Rotary Blues". Hopefully that won't happen with the proposed rotary, that is a lot of traffic along there.

[Nouvellecosse]

I had no idea the Micmac rotary ever even existed. Definitely before my time lol. Looking at those images the first thing that comes to mind it, "Why does everything around here have to be so damn ugly??" With that setting surrounded by lake and trees and rolling hills this could have been really beautiful - even a civic landmark. But instead just a plain highway grade road surrounded by a bunch of crushed rock around an empty featureless pond with a couple more empty ponds on the side? how about a fountain in the center pond? Or a small island with some type of monument? And instead of crushed rock, how about an attractive retaining wall draped with vines? Why aren't there any landscaping elements in the triangles?

I've often thought the current set up was fugly but I chalked it down to being an expressway, but given the way it looked before that's obviously not the case. In other countries such a thing wouldn't be allowed. This is not normal behaviour.

[Dengler Avenue]

But the death trap on this stretch of road is just a few hundred metres further north, where westbound traffic leaves the 111 at exit 4S and is immediately merging with southbound traffic attempting to access the 111 on-ramp from the 118 (exit 11), a distance of about 150 metres. This too was part of my daily commute, and I witnessed (and was sometimes part of) numerous near-misses. This is not the only such configuration in the region but it is the worst, in my opinion.

Time to replace the tight loop from 118S to 111E with another flyover then. There’s space.
Also why is there no loop from 118N to 111W?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Cool photos! Anyone recall what was that facility where the Superstore is now located?

It was a hotel... I think it was called the Dartmouth Inn?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I had no idea the Micmac rotary ever even existed. Definitely before my time lol. Looking at those images the first thing that comes to mind it, "Why does everything around here have to be so damn ugly??" With that setting surrounded by lake and trees and rolling hills this could have been really beautiful - even a civic landmark. But instead just a plain highway grade road surrounded by a bunch of crushed rock around an empty featureless pond with a couple more empty ponds on the side? how about a fountain in the center pond? Or a small island with some type of monument? And instead of crushed rock, how about an attractive retaining wall draped with vines? Why aren't there any landscaping elements in the triangles?

I've often thought the current set up was fugly but I chalked it down to being an expressway, but given the way it looked before that's obviously not the case. In other countries such a thing wouldn't be allowed. This is not normal behaviour.

No mystery there. Standard practice in NS has always been function over form - spend as little as possible to make it work, and don't worry about how it looks.

This attitude still exists today - just look at all the complaints everytime something 'nice' is planned for our city. Prepare for the outcry... "we can't afford it"... for buildings it means we get a low bid piece of junk that lasts 30 or 40 years until it has to be replaced again. Of course the economics of replacing a building every few decades doesn't add up when compared to initially building a higher quality structure that will last twice as long, but we're continually limited by short-term thinking here.

Another case is when they installed accent lighting on the Macdonald Bridge - IIRC, the pricetag was something like $60,000, and there was outrage about wasting so much money on lighting. Forget the fact that this lighting makes the bridge look great at night - nobody seems to put value on that...

Luckily, though, I've noticed lately that good things still seem to happen despite the outrage. Let's hope it continues to improve.

[JET]

When the pond in the middle of the rotary froze in the winter, as a fundraiser a derelict car could be placed on the ice and there was a 'pool' as to when the car would fall through the ice.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

No mystery there. Standard practice in NS has always been function over form - spend as little as possible to make it work, and don't worry about how it looks.

This decision runs counter to that philosophy. It is more along the lines of bike lanes and curb bumpouts, things that make life worse for the motorist. And it was the most expensive option by several orders of magnitude - I strongly recommend the report for your elucidation on the subject:

https://www.halifax.ca/media/67849

And the important part, the summary comparison chart:



So a combination of any or all of the other options would still be less expensive than the roundabout. Yet it went through Council like you-know-what through a goose. Why? Because this was another HRM grease job, in this case to give the junior Councillor from Dartmouth something his planner background made him pine for even before he became elected. He had his hat set on a roundabout, and everybody went along to get along. After all, it isn't their money. Shameful.

It was only a matter of time. Just another reason to throw this bunch out in the next election.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

This decision runs counter to that philosophy.

You missed the point that Novellecosse made that I was answering to. Here it is below:

Looking at those images the first thing that comes to mind it, "Why does everything around here have to be so damn ugly??" With that setting surrounded by lake and trees and rolling hills this could have been really beautiful - even a civic landmark. But instead just a plain highway grade road surrounded by a bunch of crushed rock around an empty featureless pond with a couple more empty ponds on the side?

[Mr. Hunt]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It was a hotel... I think it was called the Dartmouth Inn?

Indeed...was a Keddy's.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hunt

Indeed...was a Keddy's.

Thanks!

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You missed the point that Novellecosse made that I was answering to. Here it is below:

Not at all. The original comment was decrying the tendency here to build things with a focus on function over form. The roundabout reflects the reverse of that, something that is often subject to prettification attempts, but something that functions very poorly for its intended purpose.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Not at all. The original comment was decrying the tendency here to build things with a focus on function over form. The roundabout reflects the reverse of that, something that is often subject to prettification attempts, but something that functions very poorly for its intended purpose.

The comment was talking about a rotary built over 50 years ago.

Thought was also given to the piece that was built onto the Halifax Forum 40 or 50 years ago that is now unfixable and will have to be torn down with the renovation. Low bid, function over form (and low quality), but at least it was cheap.

I mentioned the lights on the bridge already. It has value in beautification of the bridge, but... wait for it... "It's too expensive!!!"

Etc. etc.

You're talking only about bicycle lanes and roundabouts - two of your personal pet peeves that you like to complain about. So, of course they are extravagant and unneccesary. Oh yes, and don't forget to vote out everybody that's in council now because they're a bunch of bums...