Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Question for you, since you seem pretty knowledgeable about Ottawa. The Senators drop in attendance occurred at the same time as the Redblacks' return to the city (as well as the creation of the Fury). Do you think there's some correlation there? I imagine with people having less money to spend on sports there have to be at least a few people who consider the bang-for-their-buck to be better at other sports events than Sens hockey.

The seasons do not overlap that much but it could have an impact. Just one of a number of things that contribute to the Sens' decline. Certainly they're not the only game in town anymore. Some will say what they want about the CFL and while I wouldn't say the Redblacks are number one they do give the Sens a run for their money.

I am both a hockey and football fan and I go to more Redblacks games in a given year than I do to Sens' games. I know quite a few people who are like me.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It wasn't quite overnight.

• It started in 2013 when the team let Alfredsson slip away because they weren't willing to pay him what he was worth after years of "Home Town Discounts".
• Then you had the Phoenix Pay System in 2015 screwing public servants left and right, thus reducing people's sense financial security (and severely affecting others').
• Around 2015, the team placed its bid to redevelop LeBreton Flats, the owner stressing that the current location was terrible and that a move downtown was essential to the survival of the team.
• I January 2017, he fired the well loved President of the organization who was one of the team founders. He then hired Tom Anselmi who went on to double parking rates and remove seats from the arena. Tom quit for unknown reasons in January 2018. Some of his dumb ideas were reversed the following NHL season.
• Then you had playoff games not sold out in 2016-2017, but still very well attended, and the owner bashing fans for it.
• In December 2017, during the Alumni Game on Parliament Hill, the day before the NHL Classic at Lansdowne, the owner threatened to move the team if attendance didn't go up. Again, attendance wasn't that bad at this point.
• Just before the start of the 2018-2019 season, they traded our Captain, arguably the best defencemen in the league at the time, because they were unwilling to make him a fair offer.
• In December 2018, the owner had a temper tantrum and killed the LeBreton deal.
• In February 2019, they traded every single all-star player left on the team. That same month, the attempts to save the LeBreton deal collapse, again because of the owner.

And this isn't everything. We've had a lot of drama coming out of the locker room and the front office. The owner is involved in multiple litigation, including gambling debts and the nearly $2 billion lawsuits surrounding the LeBreton deal that fell apart. The owner denies bashing fans and threatening to move despite having him one video. The owner is darn right Trumpian.

The issues the Sens are having around attendance is partly due to the terrible location, but mostly a protest against the mentally unstable owner. We just need a new owner who respects the fans, the players and his staff, first and foremost. Then, we could benefit from a new arena.

Ottawa is a good market. We support our team. We can see that when looking at the attendance numbers during the first 23 seasons (note: October 1992 to January 1996, we played in the 10,000 seat Civic Centre). We can start seeing the drop when Alfie was traded before the 2013-2014 season, followed by a free-fall starting in 2016-2017.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7328

There is a palpable and growing anti-Melnyk anger, you're right.

Under normal circumstances, in a city like Ottawa (income, demographics, hockey culture, etc.) the Sens with a crappy team should be drawing 15,000 most nights and with a good team they should fairly easily be in the 17-18,000 range.

[thurmas]

I would say 80% of the attendance issues are Melnyk related. Because Ottawa is a government town and has such a small corporate base not sure they can really develop a local ownership group to buy the club?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Question for you, since you seem pretty knowledgeable about Ottawa. The Senators drop in attendance occurred at the same time as the Redblacks' return to the city (as well as the creation of the Fury). Do you think there's some correlation there? I imagine with people having less money to spend on sports there have to be at least a few people who consider the bang-for-their-buck to be better at other sports events than Sens hockey.

There wasn't much difference the first two seasons after the RedBlacks and Fury started playing at Lansdowne, but I'm sure the fan experience at Lansdowne (close to downtown, party atmosphere, entertainment district, better fan interaction at the game, owners who aren't numb-nuts) emphasized the lackluster situation in Kanata.

[elly63]

First time I recall seeing this

• Video Link

Presentation for Rod Robbie and Michael Allen's proposed SkyDome movement method. Robbie's son Angus Robbie helped prepare the video using crude animation techniques in 1985.

MIght as well add this

• Video Link

SkyDome/Rogers Centre Built In Two And A Half Minutes
Timelapse of the world's first retractable roof sport's stadium. It was originally called the SkyDome, now called Rogers Centre. The Rogers Centre hosts the Toronto Blue Jays.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by elly63

It was originally called the SkyDome, now called Rogers Centre. The Rogers Centre hosts the Toronto Blue Jays.

That's one of my pet peeves about Rogers.

Just call the thing Rogers SkyDome. Rogers Centre means nothing to me.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

That's one of my pet peeves about Rogers.

Just call the thing Rogers SkyDome. Rogers Centre means nothing to me.

Though I gather you know why they did it? Rogers absolutely wanted the "SkyDome" name gone because they knew many people would still use "SkyDome" as shorthand and not get the maximum bang for their sponsorship buck.

So they insisted on a fully new name with Rogers in it, which yes sounds like an office building or complex more than a stadium. Well, maybe an arena if you push it but not really a stadium.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though I gather you know why they did it? Rogers absolutely wanted the "SkyDome" name gone because they knew many people would still use "SkyDome" as shorthand and not get the maximum bang for their sponsorship buck.

So they insisted on a fully new name with Rogers in it, which yes sounds like an office building or complex more than a stadium. Well, maybe an arena if you push it but not really a stadium.

Yeah, I get the corporate ethos behind it.

Still, every sportscaster still would call it "Rogers SkyDome" as per the mandate of mentioning corporate sponsors in every breath.

IMO by paying homage to the original name would have given it a sense of place. Maybe there's a reason I'm not a corporate marketing drone though.

There's an intangible argument that better marketers use, despite the fact it looks worse on paper. Then again, who has to be clever (or even decent) when you can just coast on your laurels.

[WhipperSnapper]

I'm more sympathetic after Scotiabank put up $70 million a year for the arena down the street. The value loss of retaining Skydome in its name is worth tens of millions as just about everyone would call it Skydome over Rogers. I disagree broadcasters would always use the full name. They did use ACC in place of Air Canada Centre

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

Still, every sportscaster still would call it "Rogers SkyDome" as per the mandate of mentioning corporate sponsors in every breath.

Doesn't really matter what sportscasters call it - what matters is what the everyday person calls it. Giving a building a unique moniker like SkyDome or Gardens removes the requirement to include a corporate name. That's why we've been inundated with Rogers Centre, Rogers Place, Rogers Arena. A normal person can't say they're "going to the centre" because it's not a precise enough location, hence...

[jonny24]

Dunno if it's been mentioned on here, but they're knocking it down in the next 5 years anyway. Maybe they'll rename the new one?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I'm more sympathetic after Scotiabank put up $70 million a year for the arena down the street. The value loss of retaining Skydome in its name is worth tens of millions as just about everyone would call it Skydome over Rogers. I disagree broadcasters would always use the full name. They did use ACC in place of Air Canada Centre

Obviously the sportscasters who are bound by the Blue Jays and Rogers contractually would use the full name, but your random dude doing sports on K97 FM in Barrie won't necessarily do that - and media like that are an important part of your sponsorship "hits", and key to what JHikka mentioned about average people using the name too.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by jonny24

Dunno if it's been mentioned on here, but they're knocking it down in the next 5 years anyway. Maybe they'll rename the new one?

I'm gonna need a source on that one. Doesn't the government still own the land that it's on? They aren't going to tear it down to move out to the suburbs.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Obviously the sportscasters who are bound by the Blue Jays and Rogers contractually would use the full name, but your random dude doing sports on K97 FM in Barrie won't necessarily do that - and media like that are an important part of your sponsorship "hits", and key to what JHikka mentioned about average people using the name too.

I don't doubt that during a game broadcast but, would that obligation extend to a national news program like SportsCentre? I've heard ACC said many times on air and I know it wasn't K97 FM in Barrie.

[thurmas]

Still no news on a Rogers centre renovation? I have a feeling the Jays might be sold off from Rogers for how much they are losing on their failed NHL tv deal that is costing them an arm and a leg every year.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by jonny24

Dunno if it's been mentioned on here, but they're knocking it down in the next 5 years anyway. Maybe they'll rename the new one?

Yeah - this isn't happening

[Djeffery]

What's in it for Rogers to build a new stadium? They got this one for next to nothing. What is the carrying cost on a billion dollars for a new one? How many more people will go to a game because of a new stadium? 10k a game for a couple years? Then what? We saw a few years ago the fans will still come out if the team is competitive. The on field product is where to invest their money. This stadium has the amenities that would be needed. They had 160 suites when they opened, they combined them, created party rooms and whatever, and now have 95 or so. They could create more suites if needed, they don't need a new stadium to gain suite revenue. And they also already sell the higher dollar seats. The short term gain in new attendance at a new stadium would be lower dollar seats. This isn't like the move from the Ex to the Dome, where half the seats at the Ex were the cheap bleachers. The Dome moved thousands of people from 4 dollar bleachers to 20 dollar seats behind the base lines. Obviously the place can use some updates, particularly the seats themselves, wider seats across the stadium and at least padded in the higher grades.

If this was the US, I could see Rogers managing to get a new stadium out of the governments, but the taxpayers here aren't going to do that again. I think it's a long way off before a new Jays park is seriously talked about.

[WhipperSnapper]

Huh? The stadium has been under renovations for years now and the experience for player and fan has improved. It's just not at a grandiose scale everyone gravitates towards.

Rogers didn't get it for next to nothing. They got it for fair market value. The insane price tag to build it is irrelevant.

I'm not opposed to the government contributing to a new offsite ballpark as it opens up the dome's site to be rezoned and redeveloped. It could be worth hundreds of millions at today's value.

[MalcolmTucker]

I can see Rogers replacing all the seats, fixing which way they face. I don't think they'd go as far as replacing the stands, to make the lower bowl slope better, while adding an extended concourse.

[elly63]

What originally got me on this SkyDome kick was a post in the Halifax stadium forum about a stadium being "dome ready" I thought that was pretty silly considering the costs, but it got me thinking about the FargoDome and the Superior Dome in Michigan, both of which can host football games, albeit at a smaller capacity.

I then got to thinking about the SkyDome competition and the early designs. I have posted in the stadium thread these SkyDome finalists but now can't find where I posted them.

Anyway, before them was a concept (I believe I saw it in the Globe and Mail) of a fixed roof domed stadium with a ring of windows around the top that could be slid (sic) open to allow ventilation and the pretense of being an outdoor stadium. Does this ring a bell with anyone, trust me I didn't dream that up, my imagination is not that good

Here are some other proposed Toronto stadium designs, the one I am thinking of is not among them. What I am thinking of is kind of a combination of the first and last design