Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

The building is listed as available on RioCan website though. Is there confirmation it will be Costco?

I have heard from employees that it is Costco with a massive gas bar and will be opening in a few months.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

With the many "millennial are killing" media stories it is difficult to tell what is related to their generally slower arrival at an adulting phase and what is a legitimate paradigm shift in consumption habits. On costco, I tend to think that when millennials have kids and move to the burbs that they will find costco just as appealing as their parents did.

I always have to laugh at these "Millennials are killing" stories, as if it is a bad thing. Maybe from the perspective of the Baby Boomers, who want to keep what is familiar to them forever, it is, but change isn't always a bad thing.

It also gets me how many people under estimate how old Millennials are. The average age of a Millennial today is about 35 and the youngest Millennials are in their late 20's. As a result, many if not most Millennials already have kids. What most people assume are Millennials are actually Generation Z, a very different demographic.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Except there's plenty of retail along the Confederation Line. If anything it's turning into a mall connector line. What's lacking is a specific type of retail: grocery stores. That's what I find unusual. Especially when I think about my travels elsewhere and how common it is to have some form of grocer co-located with a train/subway/bus station.

To be honest, big grocery stores (like Loblaws, Super Store, etc) are a poor choice for the land near O-Train stations for several reasons:

1. Few people actually live withing walking distance of an O-Train station, so for most it would mean a transfer. As a result, it would be better to find a grocery store on a direct bus route from your home.
2. Big grocery stores are best for big grocery runs, which aren't conclusive to Transit. If all you need is a few items, a big grocery store is very inconvenient as you are going to waste a lot of time wandering the store to find the few things you need.
3. Big grocery stores take up large footprint for the store, plus an even larger footprint for the parking lot (since most people using their store will be travelling by car). This is a huge waste of valuable TOD land. I would rather see 15 or 20 smaller stores use that space.

Now smaller grocery stores (like the Farmboy in the Rideau Centre) make a lot more sense, but in your original post (#13588), you said it was "Expensive and small." The small we already covered, and the expensive part comes from the higher overhead and lower volume. You can't have it both ways.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I always have to laugh at these "Millennials are killing" stories, as if it is a bad thing. Maybe from the perspective of the Baby Boomers, who want to keep what is familiar to them forever, it is, but change isn't always a bad thing.

It also gets me how many people under estimate how old Millennials are. The average age of a Millennial today is about 35 and the youngest Millennials are in their late 20's. As a result, many if not most Millennials already have kids. What most people assume are Millennials are actually Generation Z, a very different demographic.



To be honest, big grocery stores (like Loblaws, Super Store, etc) are a poor choice for the land near O-Train stations for several reasons:

1. Few people actually live withing walking distance of an O-Train station, so for most it would mean a transfer. As a result, it would be better to find a grocery store on a direct bus route from your home.
2. Big grocery stores are best for big grocery runs, which aren't conclusive to Transit. If all you need is a few items, a big grocery store is very inconvenient as you are going to waste a lot of time wandering the store to find the few things you need.
3. Big grocery stores take up large footprint for the store, plus an even larger footprint for the parking lot (since most people using their store will be travelling by car). This is a huge waste of valuable TOD land. I would rather see 15 or 20 smaller stores use that space.

Now smaller grocery stores (like the Farmboy in the Rideau Centre) make a lot more sense, but in your original post (#13588), you said it was "Expensive and small." The small we already covered, and the expensive part comes from the higher overhead and lower volume. You can't have it both ways.

I think it would be more valuable to have a grocery store within walking distance of one's residence, more so, than along the way home on a transit trip. If they can do both, great.

I am still not convinced that the C-Line will translate into a major shift in the way people get around. After all, it just mimics the old Transitways. This may change if we see a lot of TOD but that may take decades.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Here's a POV that is worthy of consideration :

Via Stittsville Central, an article by Andre Hallam, 2019Nov26

"Immediate solutions for the LRT solution in Ottawa"

https://stittsvillecentral.ca/immediate-solutions-for-the-lrt-solution-in-ottawa/

Introduction —

Ottawa’s LRT solution was planned as a 3-phased project, spread over several years. Phase 1 has left some issues with not only the trains themselves, but some serious issues dealing with commuters getting to and from the LRT using current bus routes.

Facts:

> LRT solution is sized to handle 21,400 passengers per hour, or 10,700 each way.
> Each train carries up to 600 passengers at a time at peak usage.
> Most of these 21,400 hourly commuters need to get on or off a bus at one end or the other to successfully complete their daily commute.
> The current design cannot handle these numbers well until all phases of the solution are complete.
> All “local” neighbourhood bus routes now converge on the LRT endpoint stations, on differently sized buses, each with its own capacity requirements. Passengers must handle locating and boarding “their” bus at these endpoints, resulting in capacity challenges.

Solution:

> Install temporary dedicated, unnumbered shuttle buses, whose sole purpose is to travel back and forth over approximately the routes covering from where Phase 1 ends today, close to the planned endpoints that Phase 3 trains will eventually take. Label the shuttles “South Line”, “West Line” and “East Line”. The solution would mimic the final Phase 3 trains, closely following the route that Phase 3 trains would take, mostly using existing transit ways and corridors.
> These buses would stop at, or close to, future LRT Phase 3 stations along the way.
> Match the frequency of these buses with the trains exactly, and size the buses and their numbers to handle the 600 passengers currently leaving and arriving every few minutes at the current LRT endpoints.
> Make the same changes to the local bus that will eventually be in place at the completion of Phase 3 immediately. These shorter routes will simply bring passengers to their local (future) LRT station, where they get on a generic shuttle.
> Plan contingency routes for these shuttles to follow in the case of disabled portions of the current LRT trains. The shuttles would essentially just keep going, thus replacing a broken down trains.

Benefits:

> Loads will be evenly spread, ensuring buses are sized appropriately to handle all LRT loads, both departing and arriving at the endpoints — due to capacity/frequency being matched to the trains.
> One single and immediate change to the “local” shorter bus routes would be in place now, eliminating changes at Phase 2 and 3 completions, and less confusion.
> Passengers switching between LRT trains and buses need not worry about the capacity of the buses waiting for them. Capacity will be matched to the trains.
> Covers times when contingency service is required.

Andre told us that, “he expects there could potentially be many arguments against my solution, but it is a starting point for discussion. Also, I have yet to hear any other proper solution.”

Andre’s proposed solution is worthy of consideration by City officials and could very well bring an end to the confusion at the endpoint platforms; more efficiency to transit by running permanent buses to deal with capacity issues; and, it allows for travel consistency when a train becomes immobilized.

Andre has written a five-page solution paper that expands on his ideas for the LRT solution. You can read more in his paper <here>.

This temporary solution could be adopted for use now and applied through the construction stages of Phase 2 and 3 of the LRT, while preparing transit users for the future when the city-wide LRT system is realized.

Link to his PDF (5 pg.) : https://stittsvillecentral.ca/wp-content/uploads/Andre-Hallam-LRT-solutions-paper-Nov-26-2019.pdf

IMO. EnJoy!

[MalcolmTucker]

> Install temporary dedicated, unnumbered shuttle buses, whose sole purpose is to travel back and forth over approximately the routes covering from where Phase 1 ends today, close to the planned endpoints that Phase 3 trains will eventually take. Label the shuttles “South Line”, “West Line” and “East Line”. The solution would mimic the final Phase 3 trains, closely following the route that Phase 3 trains would take, mostly using existing transit ways and corridors.

Creates more transfers, but service would be better. When the LRT is having difficulties you can also stretch the routes further for LRT replacement which would distribute the pain a bit.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Here's a POV that is worthy of consideration :

Via Stittsville Central, an article by Andre Hallam, 2019Nov26

"Immediate solutions for the LRT solution in Ottawa"

https://stittsvillecentral.ca/immediate-solutions-for-the-lrt-solution-in-ottawa/

Link to his PDF (5 pg.) : https://stittsvillecentral.ca/wp-content/uploads/Andre-Hallam-LRT-solutions-paper-Nov-26-2019.pdf

IMO. EnJoy!

Certainly an interesting idea. It would certainly work very well in the east and South-West, where the LRT will be following the existing Transitway and using existing stations.

For Kanata/Stittsville, it would be a bit of a compromise as there is no existing Transitway and many of the stations don't yet exist. The only future O-Train stations that do exist are Eagleson/Terron (currently separate stations), Terry Fox, and Palladium. Since there isn't a Transitway connecting those stations, the buses would end up having to wind through local streets to serve all of them. During peak periods they could have separate buses for each of the three stations, but off peak, they would best be merged into one bus route, sacrificing speed for frequency.

An interesting piece of trivia is that Stittsville Central was founded by Glen Gower (prior to him entering politics). He stepped down and removed his affiliation to it when he decided to run for councillor.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Radster

Why? That's easy, because in Ottawa, car is king. The C Line is built for those living in the burbs, and so once they get home, they can drive to their Costcos and grocery stores, why would they bother lugging all those bags of groceries on a crowded C Line? Those living inside the Greenbelt, well they have their grocery stores either within walking distance or along a bus route or they too, drive.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yep. We are far from creating a transit culture in Ottawa, otherwise we would be developing a much better frequent bus network instead of cutting service as we did on October 6th. Absolutely nothing is being done to improve off-peak frequency on even key bus routes. The C-Line may help a few non-commuters, but it is mainly commuter oriented especially for suburban commuters and mostly for peak riders only. It is amazing that the C-Line doesn't run every 30 minutes during off-peak hours given the lousy bus service on connecting routes.

I would argue that this is the beginning of toppling the King in Ottawa.

Proof of that, just look at how busy the line is. If it weren't that busy, the glitches wouldn't be noticed.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I would argue that this is the beginning of toppling the King in Ottawa.

Proof of that, just look at how busy the line is. If it weren't that busy, the glitches wouldn't be noticed.

It is designed to serve the passenger volumes created by the past Transitways and the busyness is very much focused on peak period commuting.

But also consider the modal share of private vehicles. We will see if ridership grows, but as it stands, it still lower than before the foolhardy 2009 bus strike.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I always have to laugh at these "Millennials are killing" stories, as if it is a bad thing. Maybe from the perspective of the Baby Boomers, who want to keep what is familiar to them forever, it is, but change isn't always a bad thing.

Not sure it's a good or bad thing so much as an inevitability. Preferences change. Technology changes. And with that goods and services most consumed by a generation will also change. 30 years from today when most cars are partially or fully electrified, there will be far fewer gas stations and brake/lube shops. It's not a good or bad thing (environmental concerns aside). It's an inevitability rendered by technological evolution.

Originally Posted by roger1818

It also gets me how many people under estimate how old Millennials are. The average age of a Millennial today is about 35 and the youngest Millennials are in their late 20's. As a result, many if not most Millennials already have kids. What most people assume are Millennials are actually Generation Z, a very different demographic.

StatsCan considers millennials to be born between 1982 to 1991. The youngest millennial is 28. The oldest millennials is 37. I wouldn't say that most have kids. This is a cohort that has had it rough economically, entering the work force during the Great Recession and with higher student debt. That's delayed a lot of milestones and household formation that goes with that, like marriage and kids. With a median age in the early 30s, we'll probably see a spike in these milestones and household formation over the next 5 years.

Originally Posted by roger1818

To be honest, big grocery stores (like Loblaws, Super Store, etc) are a poor choice for the land near O-Train stations for several reasons:

1. Few people actually live withing walking distance of an O-Train station, so for most it would mean a transfer. As a result, it would be better to find a grocery store on a direct bus route from your home.
2. Big grocery stores are best for big grocery runs, which aren't conclusive to Transit. If all you need is a few items, a big grocery store is very inconvenient as you are going to waste a lot of time wandering the store to find the few things you need.
3. Big grocery stores take up large footprint for the store, plus an even larger footprint for the parking lot (since most people using their store will be travelling by car). This is a huge waste of valuable TOD land. I would rather see 15 or 20 smaller stores use that space.

Now smaller grocery stores (like the Farmboy in the Rideau Centre) make a lot more sense, but in your original post (#13588), you said it was "Expensive and small." The small we already covered, and the expensive part comes from the higher overhead and lower volume. You can't have it both ways.

I'd buy these arguments if we didn't have large malls with huge parking lots near several of the stations. I can understand why some of the downtown stations or UOttawa or Tremblay don't have grocery stores nearby. I don't get why St. Laurent Centre doesn't have one. Heck, retail in general is actually pretty sparse entirely nearly Lees, Pimisi and Tunney's. I've left out Bayview because I assume development in that area will add something. Given that the LRT has been under construction for well over half a decade, and given the broader push for TOD, I would assume retailers would find locating near rail to be attractive.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Well, the future 'never to be built' station won't exactly be next door.

Based on the plans I saw, the potential future station would be located directly south of the shoppers city east parking lot. can't really get any closer than that with the ROW alignment.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Based on the plans I saw, the potential future station would be located directly south of the shoppers city east parking lot. can't really get any closer than that with the ROW alignment.

That is indeed a strange plan since the pocket of lower income, higher density housing is at Jasmine Crescent, further to the east. But then again, we seem to focus on commercial interests rather than taxpayers who are paying for the project.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is designed to serve the passenger volumes created by the past Transitways and the busyness is very much focused on peak period commuting.

But also consider the modal share of private vehicles. We will see if ridership grows, but as it stands, it still lower than before the foolhardy 2009 bus strike.

Give it 5 years. In 5 years, there will likely be some TOD near the stations that may include stores like Costco and others on the ground floor. They may still have lots of parking, but they would still appeal to those who don't need or want a car.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

That is indeed a strange plan since the pocket of lower income, higher density housing is at Jasmine Crescent, further to the east. But then again, we seem to focus on commercial interests rather than taxpayers who are paying for the project.

Yup, I thought it was strange too. No plans for a Jasmine station by the looks of it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I always have to laugh at these "Millennials are killing" stories, as if it is a bad thing. Maybe from the perspective of the Baby Boomers, who want to keep what is familiar to them forever, it is, but change isn't always a bad thing.

It also gets me how many people under estimate how old Millennials are. The average age of a Millennial today is about 35 and the youngest Millennials are in their late 20's. As a result, many if not most Millennials already have kids. What most people assume are Millennials are actually Generation Z, a very different demographic.

But I am also not sure how much millennials are actually killing. Most of these lists feature things that are going out of style anyway (including among Gen X, Boomers, etc) or closely associated with having kids, which millennials are having later than previous generations, so their prime costco years may have been pushed back.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Something has struck me with my recent use of the LRT to do some basic household shopping and groceries. Retail has not adjusted that much to the LRT. Sure there's malls on the LRT. But there's only two grocery stores near stations. Farm Boy at Rideau. Expensive and small. Loblaws at Blair. Not located very close to the station. I was just thinking about the Adonis opening on St. Laurent and wondering why there's no business case for a store like that to open at the St. Laurent Mall with easy LRT access.

My guess is that most grocery retail that will end up next to O-Train stations and serving primarily that clientele will be on the small and expensive side. Though if these are mostly people who don't have cars then they probably won't mind and also will be able to pay a bit more for groceries.

I have one vehicle which costs me about $10,000 a year all told. If you take that expense away I can easily pay 50 cents more weekly for orange juice and 25 cents more for bananas, and a whole bunch of other stuff...

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by roger1818

To be honest, big grocery stores (like Loblaws, Super Store, etc) are a poor choice for the land near O-Train stations for several reasons:[LIST=1][*]Big grocery stores are best for big grocery runs, which aren't conclusive to Transit. If all you need is a few items, a big grocery store is very inconvenient as you are going to waste a lot of time wandering the store to find the few things you need.

Yeah. Urban shoppers have a different way of shopping.. going to the store frequently and buying a few things at a time. The Sobeys Urban Fresh on Metcalfe (RIP) was the best example in Ottawa of a store that catered to that shopping preference.

Big supermarkets are awful for people like that. I was very glad when the Westboro Farmboy opened because until then the only store in the area was the superstore which is extremely suburban and doesn't cater to urban style shoppers at all despite its location between two urban neighbourhoods (heck at that store you can't even get a basket or a small shopping cart most of the time, forcing you to haul around a friggen SUV shopping cart just to get a few things )

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Yeah. Urban shoppers have a different way of shopping.. going to the store frequently and buying a few things at a time. The Sobeys Urban Fresh on Metcalfe (RIP) was the best example in Ottawa of a store that catered to that shopping preference.

Big supermarkets are awful for people like that. I was very glad when the Westboro Farmboy opened because until then the only store in the area was the superstore which is extremely suburban and doesn't cater to urban style shoppers at all despite its location between two urban neighbourhoods (heck at that store you can't even get a basket or a small shopping cart most of the time, forcing you to haul around a friggen SUV shopping cart just to get a few things )

That's odd. The area I live in is relatively suburban in character similarly to Baseline and Merivale and all of the supermarkets have about 3-4 different types of thingies at your disposal: from small hand-held baskets to full size shopping carts, with various options in-between.

[OTownandDown]

Millennials aren't responsible for the decline of the big box store, we just have:
1. Tighter financial constraints than our Boomer parents.
2. A sense that the world is heating due to consumption of garbage these stores sell.
3. A better 'buy local' mentality to support our hipster shop owners.

I don't like waste, so I only buy food for 1 or 2 days at a time. Costco makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a spoon when I happen to find myself there, just because of the customer experience and the sheer mad-max madness of the other people shopping there. Lately when I want to purchase a product (seldom) I check the label to see where it's made, which is a huge change from my previous habits.

Edit, Trunorth is right, setting up a household is next to impossible without at least 10 years of consistent career growth. The government really helps with that, if you were lucky enough to stay on staff after the Conservative cuts. In the private sector, there's absolutely no way I can afford to buy even a condo on my professional salary (and friends don't let friends buy condos anyways). So apartment it is, for the last 10 years! (and now I can't afford to move at all, because my current rent is literally half the price of the same unit's current asking rent. My rent is so cheap that on a $400,000 home, my rent wouldn't even cover property tax, utilities and home insurance) Let's not even talk about RRSP's and retirement income.

Originally Posted by CityTech

Yeah. Urban shoppers have a different way of shopping.. going to the store frequently and buying a few things at a time. The Sobeys Urban Fresh on Metcalfe (RIP) was the best example in Ottawa of a store that catered to that shopping preference.

Big supermarkets are awful for people like that. I was very glad when the Westboro Farmboy opened because until then the only store in the area was the superstore which is extremely suburban and doesn't cater to urban style shoppers at all despite its location between two urban neighbourhoods (heck at that store you can't even get a basket or a small shopping cart most of the time, forcing you to haul around a friggen SUV shopping cart just to get a few things )

[Kitchissippi]

This discussion of evolving shopping habits should be moved to the retail thread.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My guess is that most grocery retail that will end up next to O-Train stations and serving primarily that clientele will be on the small and expensive side. Though if these are mostly people who don't have cars then they probably won't mind and also will be able to pay a bit more for groceries.

I have one vehicle which costs me about $10,000 a year all told. If you take that expense away I can easily pay 50 cents more weekly for orange juice and 25 cents more for bananas, and a whole bunch of other stuff...

This is disputable. The Gloucester Centre across Blair Station has a Bulk Barn and Loblaws. Now Loblaw is no Food Basics or No Frills. But it isn't Farm Boy either on the pricing scale. And if transit was really driving up retail rents, that Bulk Barn would have a tough time there.

I don't think you can make uniform assumptions across the line. There's clearly stations in neighbourhoods where higher end grocery stores wouldn't work. What works at a downtown station wouldn't necessarily work at a suburban station.