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  #7981  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 4:00 AM
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From Tête à la Baleine to Île de la Baie Platte, there’s a causeway. That can be a solution (although it’s closed for some reason). Maybe bridging the gap (pardon the pun) in Route 138 isn’t impossible, after all.
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My Proposal of TCH Twinning in Northern Ontario
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  #7982  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 6:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
What are the costs of ferry service compared compared to having a bridge? Also, delivery times. In my opinion, a bridge would bring a lot of opportunity.
You need hundreds of km of new highway in Quebec before even addressing the 10 or so mile bridge or tunnel over to Newfoundland. And then the TCH is still hundreds of km south from there, so new highway needed on the island. Map it out online, I thought I was doing something wrong in the search, but it's a ridiculous distance being talked about. Starting in Quebec City, and going to Point Amour, which is either near or at the location on the mainland being talked about for that side of the link, it's hours quicker to go to North Sydney, take the ferry, drive up to the northern Peninsula and take the ferry back over than it is to drive though Quebec to get there. And also, let's say we do have a nice highway running along the St Lawrence up there (1200km or so), what kind of a drive is that going to be in the non summer months?

I wonder, given the amount of money this would end up costing, not to mention the decades of work involved, what kind of a better ferry service they could come up. Faster, more frequent service would probably greatly increase economic activity both ways, and would be able to happen years sooner. Port aux Basque is only a 100 mile crossing (not the 1000km Dengler mentioned above) and a fast ferry could do it in a third of the time the current ferries do it.
     
     
  #7983  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Djeffery View Post
You need hundreds of km of new highway in Quebec before even addressing the 10 or so mile bridge or tunnel over to Newfoundland. And then the TCH is still hundreds of km south from there, so new highway needed on the island. Map it out online, I thought I was doing something wrong in the search, but it's a ridiculous distance being talked about. Starting in Quebec City, and going to Point Amour, which is either near or at the location on the mainland being talked about for that side of the link, it's hours quicker to go to North Sydney, take the ferry, drive up to the northern Peninsula and take the ferry back over than it is to drive though Quebec to get there. And also, let's say we do have a nice highway running along the St Lawrence up there (1200km or so), what kind of a drive is that going to be in the non summer months?

I wonder, given the amount of money this would end up costing, not to mention the decades of work involved, what kind of a better ferry service they could come up. Faster, more frequent service would probably greatly increase economic activity both ways, and would be able to happen years sooner. Port aux Basque is only a 100 mile crossing (not the 1000km Dengler mentioned above) and a fast ferry could do it in a third of the time the current ferries do it.
My bad I looked at the wrong numbers.

Now that I remember, it should be ~165 km.
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My Proposal of TCH Twinning in Northern Ontario
Disclaimer: Most of it is pure pie in the sky, so there's no need to be up in the arm about it.
     
     
  #7984  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 2:20 PM
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So Canada has nearly 10,000,000 sq km. We're the second largest country in the world, but so what? We live in about 10% of the land mass. The rest of the country is mostly a theoretical abstract. What's the point of having nominal control over the other 90% if nobody ever visits there???

I know that most of the country is virtually uninhabitable, and that large portions of the rest should be preserved for future posterity, but despite this, there is still lots left over. We should put in place the mechanisms whereby people can actually visit some of these wilder places and see what we have been blessed with. A land route to the lower north shore and on to the island of Newfoundland would help to accomplish this.

Our ownership of Canada is de jure, but still mostly nominal and theoretical. If the Russians came in tomorrow and occupied all of northern Canada would most of us really notice? More importantly, would most of us really care..............

We need to build this sense of ownership and of belonging. We need to make more of Canada accessible. The Alaska Highway has accomplished this in the northwest. Let's begin a new national project here in the east - let's build the Newfoundland Highway...........
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  #7985  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 2:35 PM
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As long as you don't mind racking up the deficit to fund it. And even then, there are countless projects that would actually benefit the country that are far above building railways and highways to no where. If they build a tunnel to nowhere in Newfoundland before there is any passenger railway in my city, or before the TCH through the mountains is upgraded, I might just join the wexit party.

Previous mega projects have had economic or military potential to justify the cost. They weren't just built to give people a nice view of the country.
     
     
  #7986  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
As long as you don't mind racking up the deficit to fund it. And even then, there are countless projects that would actually benefit the country that are far above building railways and highways to no where. If they build a tunnel to nowhere in Newfoundland before there is any passenger railway in my city, or before the TCH through the mountains is upgraded, I might just join the wexit party.

Previous mega projects have had economic or military potential to justify the cost. They weren't just built to give people a nice view of the country.
You and I are not at odds over this issue. I support improved rail service in the country too (both east and west, and not just in the QC-Windsor corridor). I also want to see an upgraded TCH through the mountains (and in northern Ontario). These projects will have economic benefit, and will help to bind the country together. Projects like these are acts of nation building. So is a fixed link to Newfoundland.

If Canada is to go tens of billions of dollars in debt, I'd rather see the money spent on national infrastructure projects rather than expanded social programs. At least we would have built something for our money.
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  #7987  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
I
I have always wondered if it would be possible to fill those "holes" in. Would the water be too deep for that?
If those "holes" are similar to the ones in Northern Ontario, I would suggest against it.


CN and CP learned that when you do that, and park a train or bulldozer or other equipment on it overnight, in the morning it, and the roadbed is gone.
     
     
  #7988  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
If those "holes" are similar to the ones in Northern Ontario, I would suggest against it.


CN and CP learned that when you do that, and park a train or bulldozer or other equipment on it overnight, in the morning it, and the roadbed is gone.
Where are those holes in Northern Ontario?
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My Proposal of TCH Twinning in Northern Ontario
Disclaimer: Most of it is pure pie in the sky, so there's no need to be up in the arm about it.
     
     
  #7989  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 5:34 PM
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Video of Autoroute 30 around Montreal, starting at the eastern edge of the 401 in Ontario and heading east:

Video Link
     
     
  #7990  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
If Canada is to go tens of billions of dollars in debt, I'd rather see the money spent on national infrastructure projects rather than expanded social programs. At least we would have built something for our money.
Now this I agree with !
     
     
  #7991  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 7:44 PM
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Now this I agree with !
Same here. You need good infrastructure, especially highway infrastructure, to have a strong economy to help pay for social programs.
     
     
  #7992  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 7:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I view an expanded Quebec north shore highway and fixed link to Newfoundland as purely an act of nation building.

By nation building, I mean projects without a solid business case, constructed only as a leap of faith, and/or as a necessary piece of civil defence infrastructure much like the Alaska Highway is.

In many ways, the only comparable infrastructure like this in North America would be the Alaska Highway.

If the Alaska Highway had never been built, places like Fort St. John in BC would be backwaters at the end of the road. Fort St. John is still remote, but at least it is viewed as being on the way to somewhere else, and as such, at least nominally part of the greater whole of North America.

Sept Iles is more or less the end of the road now in Quebec If there were a connecting road all the way through to Newfoundland however, then all of a sudden Sept Iles would be on the way to somewhere else too!! New service industries would set up including hotels and restaurants to cater to the travelling public. Truck stops would be built at waypoints along the way to the Strait of Belle Isles. Tourism along the Quebec north shore would increase by orders of magnitude. Isolated communities on the north shore east of Sept Iles would suddenly be connected directly to the Canadian mainstream. A whole new section of the country would suddenly be open to exploration.

Northern BC and the Yukon have benefitted immeasurably from the Alaska Highway. Why shouldn't the lower north shore of Quebec and the northern peninsula of Newfoundland benefit from a similar project as well.

If such a project ever were to be completed in my lifetime, and if I were still spry enough for the adventure, I would certainly consider doing the "great circle route" around the Gulf of St. Lawrence as a bucket list adventure.........
I appreciate your point about road/infastructure building being nation building, but the history of the Alaska Highway is not quite the best example of idillic Canadian nation building.

The Alaska Highway was build as a counter-measure to the threat of a possible Japanese invasion to Alaska during World War II. It was constructed by the US Army Corps of Engineers, so it was more a result of American nation building rather than Canadian, and its alignment to Dawson Creek was chosen because it would have been protected from Pacific-based enemy attacks and connected a string airbases that also served as an air supply route to the USSR. The highway was handed over to Canada in 1948. If the Alaska Highway was constructed during peace time, it probably would have had a very different route, either following the present-day Cassiar Highway between Hazelton, BC and Watson Lake, YK; or following the Rocky Mountain Trench from Prince George, BC to Dawson City, YK - both of which would bypass Dawson Creek and Fort St. John.
(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Highway)

Fort St. John has definitly benefitted from its location along the Alaska Hwy, and it's modern-day growth is in part because of the bridge across the Peace River that opened in 1957, and also due to the oil & gas development that followed. No Alaska Highway would probably still have resulted in the bridge and resource development, but as you mentioned, it probably would have been more at the end of the road.

As an aside, if we as a nation truely valued infastructure projects as a part of nation building, then why would the 3rd and 4th largest cities which are ~970 km apart (Vancouver & Calgary) still have a road connecting them that has significant 2 lane sections?
     
     
  #7993  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
If Canada is to go tens of billions of dollars in debt, I'd rather see the money spent on national infrastructure projects rather than expanded social programs. At least we would have built something for our money.
I'm not saying infrastructure isn't important, but it is a bit much to suggest that the people who would benefit from improved healthcare, education, family services, access to justice in ways that would significantly improve their lives should just pound sand so we can build a highway to Nunavut or whatever.
     
     
  #7994  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 4:47 PM
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If Canada had built the Alaska Highway It may never have been completed. The cost was quite significant even in war time.

However, since we now have an all weather road to the NW northern Coast we should look at a road up the Labrador coast, one up the centre of Quebec and another from Thompson to Churchill and maybe up the west coast of Hudson Bay to at least Rankin Inlet.
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  #7995  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
If Canada had built the Alaska Highway It may never have been completed. The cost was quite significant even in war time.

However, since we now have an all weather road to the NW northern Coast we should look at a road up the Labrador coast, one up the centre of Quebec and another from Thompson to Churchill and maybe up the west coast of Hudson Bay to at least Rankin Inlet.
What other projects do you want to put on hold to pay for these highways to nowhere?
     
     
  #7996  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 6:12 PM
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What other projects do you want to put on hold to pay for these highways to nowhere?
You do know that the people who live in "nowhere" pay taxes just like you and they receive no benefit from Billion+$ invested in city transit, or or driving on the paved multi lane highways at 120 km per hour. They do't even have a gravel road. In order to build a country you have to invest in different parts of the country. Not all the money can go to the taxpayers of southern Canada who live in cites. FYI I live in a city.
     
     
  #7997  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 6:39 PM
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You do know that the people who live in "nowhere" pay taxes just like you and they receive no benefit from Billion+$ invested in city transit, or or driving on the paved multi lane highways at 120 km per hour. They do't even have a gravel road. In order to build a country you have to invest in different parts of the country. Not all the money can go to the taxpayers of southern Canada who live in cites. FYI I live in a city.
The benefit those taxpayers receive must match the benefit they provide. If we don't prioritize projects with the maximum economic benefit, then we will be even less able to fund the projects you ask for in the future.
     
     
  #7998  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 7:28 PM
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The benefit those taxpayers receive must match the benefit they provide. If we don't prioritize projects with the maximum economic benefit, then we will be even less able to fund the projects you ask for in the future.
Here is how it works in the so called hinterland.

Alberta pays more to the federal treasury than it receives.
The City of Ottawa pays 30% for LRT construction while the GTHA gets LRT and subways built 100% by the provincial government or 50/50 with the federal government.

These sorts of things happen in every part of the country.
     
     
  #7999  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 8:09 PM
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What other projects do you want to put on hold to pay for these highways to nowhere?
These roads have been discussed in the past. they would open up large swatches of land for mineral exploitation. In face rare earth minerals found in those regions.

They would also allow the remote communities access to much need supplies at lower costs. Most of those that need to be shipped or flown in.

There was talk of a road near Taloyoak that would have a deep water port and allow access to the northern mines.

An access road to Churchill would allow for cheaper shipments to the Port. Continuing the road up the west side of Hudson bay would give access to at least 5 other communities some of which have large mines near by.

Just think of all that tax revenue. May be able to pay for a new bridge across the Detroit river. Oh right that is fully funded by the GoC.
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  #8000  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 8:21 PM
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If there's an economic justification, then absolutely we should build highways to those places! But just building roads to nowhere because it's nice, or 'fair', is not a good enough reason.
     
     
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