Highways in Canada

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I agree, but there has to be economic justification for such projects. There are probably dozens (or more) projects of similar scale with far better business cases across Canada, and a limited pot of money. Is a tunnel to Newfoundland top of the list? Building any half decent passenger rail west of Ontario would be a good start before we start thinking of marginal business cases.

Being able to ship goods to and from Newfoundland for less cost than now and in a much more timely fashion would not be a marginal business case. Even if the entire project cost $5 billion the economic potential would be much greater.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I just typed onto google maps "Quebec City to Point Amour", and it spit back a 32 hour 2200km drive. And that's just to the top of the peninsula, with god knows how many hours ahead of you to wherever you are going on the island. That might be something I would consider as a retirement vacation, but I can't see the economic benefits to trucking companies to go this way. Nor can I see Quebec being interested in having however many trucks rolling up that little 2 lane road that would surely need to be upgraded.

If it's 10 miles across, then the ferry isn't that long so why isn't this already a preferred transportation corridor? Probably because when you do that same google map search, the preferred routing is through Cape Breton, across on the ferry, up north and back across on the ferry to Point Amour. 4 hours shorter, even with the North Sydney ferry crossing. Or probably 8 or 9 hours shorter if you aren't planning to go north of Deer Lake.

But I honestly haven't given it any more thought than the last half hour or so, so there would naturally be pro-bridge arguments I'm not immediately seeing.

But if such a link resulted in new businesses popping up in the area and on the Quebec side the project would help to grow the area. Even at $5 billion that is a relatively small investment to help kick start the area.

[Dengler Avenue]

At the risk of sounding cynical, I’m gonna say a few things:
(1) Norway’s project will cost $47B. Ours may cost less, but definitely not that much less.
(2) I actually posted that video a while back. Then I was wondering why we couldn’t do the same thing with TCH. Next thing I knew, one respected SSP’er told me I was tiring...

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

If you look at what Norway is doing with the highway their building around their coastline I'd say anything is possible. A road link connecting Newfoundland to the mainland should be a national priority and that link should have decent roads leading to it.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Flower's+...2m2!1d-52.7125768!2d47.5615096!3e0?hl=en

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Forteau,+...1d-71.2079809!2d46.8138783!3e0!5i2?hl=en

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Forteau,+...2m2!1d-71.2079809!2d46.8138783!3e0?hl=en

This is why a fixed link is pointless.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Being able to ship goods to and from Newfoundland for less cost than now and in a much more timely fashion would not be a marginal business case. Even if the entire project cost $5 billion the economic potential would be much greater.

Why would it cost less and and be faster? Even discounting the enormous capital cost, it's a very roundabout way to send a container on a train when you could just stick it on a truck or a boat. And then you actually do have to consider the capital cost...

If there was a business case for this, CP or CN are welcome to build it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why would it cost less and and be faster? Even discounting the enormous capital cost, it's a very roundabout way to send a container on a train when you could just stick it on a truck or a boat. And then you actually do have to consider the capital cost...

If there was a business case for this, CP or CN are welcome to build it.

CN and CP haven't built much new infrastructure in decades. All they want to do is get rid of any short spurs and lines that they can.

Don't forget, CN owned the line on NL and they abandoned it.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

(2) I actually posted that video a while back. Then I was wondering why we couldn’t do the same thing with TCH. Next thing I knew, one respected SSP’er told me I was tiring...

Sometimes you come off as a highway geek more than a transit geek (just kidding, I know one doesn’t necessarily prevent the other)

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

CN and CP haven't built much new infrastructure in decades. All they want to do is get rid of any short spurs and lines that they can.

Don't forget, CN owned the line on NL and they abandoned it.

Yes. Hence the idea there is a good business case for a Newfoundland tunnel is questionable.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Sometimes you come off as a highway geek more than a transit geek (just kidding, I know one doesn’t necessarily prevent the other)

I forgot how to change the name. The process isn’t immediately obvious.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why would it cost less and and be faster? Even discounting the enormous capital cost, it's a very roundabout way to send a container on a train when you could just stick it on a truck or a boat. And then you actually do have to consider the capital cost...

If there was a business case for this, CP or CN are welcome to build it.

The "business case" would be public at scale. The economic growth would be captured by the government from increased activity across the broad economy. No single corporation could finance it for this reason. (That's generally the reason why private infrastructure development is so rare nowadays...)

I'm not sure if I want it, but one thing for sure: Newfoundland is hurting bad, and much of it is due to the federal government screwing them over in the past. IMO, it's morally correct for the federal government to bail them out for this reason. And I'd prefer a federal investment in NL's infrastructure and economic development over simply giving their government money.

To mean the real question is, if we're gonna spend $5B on NL infrastructure, is this project the best value for money? Are there alternative projects worth $5B in NL that would have a greater economic impact on the province? Those are the questions I'd want answered.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The "business case" would be public at scale. The economic growth would be captured by the government from increased activity across the broad economy. No single corporation could finance it for this reason. (That's generally the reason why private infrastructure development is so rare nowadays...)

I'm not sure if I want it, but one thing for sure: Newfoundland is hurting bad, and much of it is due to the federal government screwing them over in the past. IMO, it's morally correct for the federal government to bail them out for this reason. And I'd prefer a federal investment in NL's infrastructure and economic development over simply giving their government money.

To mean the real question is, if we're gonna spend $5B on NL infrastructure, is this project the best value for money? Are there alternative projects worth $5B in NL that would have a greater economic impact on the province? Those are the questions I'd want answered.

There's already one that Newfoundland would be happy to be rid of and the feds already have their fingers in the pie for - Muskrat Falls.

Unloading that burden would help the province hugely.

The problem with Newfoundland is that massive infrastructure projects only work if there's growth to actually use the infrastructure in question. Big highways, huge dams, new hospitals, stadiums and mass transit is great, but if they're underused vanity projects, they're a waste of money. Then you have the white elephant problem - your new thing probably will require maintenance and capital investment in the future. If this thing has produced lasting growth, those costs are borne by increased GDP. If not, you've got a wonderful millstone around your neck as you keep treading water.

[MonctonRad]

I view an expanded Quebec north shore highway and fixed link to Newfoundland as purely an act of nation building.

By nation building, I mean projects without a solid business case, constructed only as a leap of faith, and/or as a necessary piece of civil defence infrastructure much like the Alaska Highway is.

In many ways, the only comparable infrastructure like this in North America would be the Alaska Highway.

If the Alaska Highway had never been built, places like Fort St. John in BC would be backwaters at the end of the road. Fort St. John is still remote, but at least it is viewed as being on the way to somewhere else, and as such, at least nominally part of the greater whole of North America.

Sept Iles is more or less the end of the road now in Quebec If there were a connecting road all the way through to Newfoundland however, then all of a sudden Sept Iles would be on the way to somewhere else too!! New service industries would set up including hotels and restaurants to cater to the travelling public. Truck stops would be built at waypoints along the way to the Strait of Belle Isles. Tourism along the Quebec north shore would increase by orders of magnitude. Isolated communities on the north shore east of Sept Iles would suddenly be connected directly to the Canadian mainstream. A whole new section of the country would suddenly be open to exploration.

Northern BC and the Yukon have benefitted immeasurably from the Alaska Highway. Why shouldn't the lower north shore of Quebec and the northern peninsula of Newfoundland benefit from a similar project as well.

If such a project ever were to be completed in my lifetime, and if I were still spry enough for the adventure, I would certainly consider doing the "great circle route" around the Gulf of St. Lawrence as a bucket list adventure.........

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I view an expanded Quebec north shore highway and fixed link to Newfoundland as purely an act of nation building.

By nation building, I mean projects without a solid business case, constructed only as a leap of faith, and/or as a necessary piece of civil defence infrastructure much like the Alaska Highway is.

The number of bridges that would be required for a road like that would be huge. I appreciate the nation-building spirit but it would be billions of dollars down the drain to bring a road, and a little bit of tourism revenue, to a few thousand people.

Why not build a road along the south coast of Newfoundland? While equally non-feasible, a more direct connection from Port aux Basques to the Avalon Peninsula would probably do more to bring St. John's closer to the ROC.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I forgot how to change the name. The process isn’t immediately obvious.

Come on, you use the title "geek" and can't figure this out? lol. User CP-->Edit Your Details -->Custom User Title. Took me 5 times as long to type this as it did to find it in the first place, and I'm not a geek lol.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Come on, you use the title "geek" and can't figure this out? lol. User CP-->Edit Your Details -->Custom User Title. Took me 5 times as long to type this as it did to find it in the first place, and I'm not a geek lol.

I really just meant Highway/Transit Enthusiast. I just found out it was actually possible to fit that many characters in custom user title. Anyway I've changed it now.

Originally Posted by Andy6

The number of bridges that would be required for a road like that would be huge. I appreciate the nation-building spirit but it would be billions of dollars down the drain to bring a road, and a little bit of tourism revenue, to a few thousand people.

Why not build a road along the south coast of Newfoundland? While equally non-feasible, a more direct connection from Port aux Basques to the Avalon Peninsula would probably do more to bring St. John's closer to the ROC.

I have always wondered if it would be possible to fill those "holes" in. Would the water be too deep for that?

Also, when (or if ever) the technology's there, what about a 4-lane + rail tunnel from Sydney, N.S. to Argentia?
Like I said, only if the technology (and possibly a solid business case) is there. If such technology will actually be a thing in the (far far) future though, I envision it's gonna be a deep bored tunnel. Bref, not only does N.S.-104 need to be twinned and extended all the way to Sydney, it also needs to drop in altitude quickly enough to be linked to this envisioned tunnel. Its (system) interchange with N.S.-125 will look very funny...

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I view an expanded Quebec north shore highway and fixed link to Newfoundland as purely an act of nation building.

By nation building, I mean projects without a solid business case, constructed only as a leap of faith, and/or as a necessary piece of civil defence infrastructure much like the Alaska Highway is.

In many ways, the only comparable infrastructure like this in North America would be the Alaska Highway.

If the Alaska Highway had never been built, places like Fort St. John in BC would be backwaters at the end of the road. Fort St. John is still remote, but at least it is viewed as being on the way to somewhere else, and as such, at least nominally part of the greater whole of North America.

Sept Iles is more or less the end of the road now in Quebec If there were a connecting road all the way through to Newfoundland however, then all of a sudden Sept Iles would be on the way to somewhere else too!! New service industries would set up including hotels and restaurants to cater to the travelling public. Truck stops would be built at waypoints along the way to the Strait of Belle Isles. Tourism along the Quebec north shore would increase by orders of magnitude. Isolated communities on the north shore east of Sept Iles would suddenly be connected directly to the Canadian mainstream. A whole new section of the country would suddenly be open to exploration.

Northern BC and the Yukon have benefitted immeasurably from the Alaska Highway. Why shouldn't the lower north shore of Quebec and the northern peninsula of Newfoundland benefit from a similar project as well.

If such a project ever were to be completed in my lifetime, and if I were still spry enough for the adventure, I would certainly consider doing the "great circle route" around the Gulf of St. Lawrence as a bucket list adventure.........

I'm debating if I should shout "T.C.H." speaking of Nation Building. "My heart for (or my dedication to) a divided T.C.H. is undivided."

Originally Posted by le calmar

Sometimes you come off as a highway geek more than a transit geek (just kidding, I know one doesn’t necessarily prevent the other)

I was actually gonna stay away from talking about highways for a bit and switch to public transit, but that fell through eventually.
You know I'm serious about highways when I even have a thread about them in the Quebec subforum. I have always wished that more people will join me there (and that people join me there more often) though. It's been nice being able to talk to Eastern Freeway back and forth, but it'll be great to see others joining me in discussion too.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Also, when (or if ever) the technology's there, what about a 4-lane + rail tunnel from Sydney, N.S. to Argentia?

Hell, if we are going to look at a 500km long tunnel, why not just go Miramichi to Port aux Basques and twin the 108 from Grand Falls and save the drive all the way to Sydney?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Hell, if we are going to look at a 500km long tunnel, why not just go Miramichi to Port aux Basques and twin the 108 from Grand Falls and save the drive all the way to Sydney?

Port Aux Basque is 1000 km away from North Sydney, so Miramichi’s even farther.

Well, let’s see where QC and feds go with 138 extension first. Like I said, I would like to see how those “holes” in the terrain will be addressed.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Port Aux Basque is 1000 km away from North Sydney, so Miramichi’s even farther.

Well, let’s see where QC and feds go with 138 extension first. Like I said, I would like to see how those “holes” in the terrain will be addressed.

I wouldn't expect anything soon. Hundreds of millions are being spent on the existing route, with segments of <500 cars a day. Going to be hard to justify spending billions on a new route. However, I do think it's quite possible for a 10-20 year action plan if everything lines up at the political level.

QC and the Feds are spending almost $500 million for upgrades to Route 389, Baie-Comeau to QC-Labrador border.

https://www.renewcanada.net/construction-begins-on-route-389-improvement-program/
https://www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/fr/pro...e-nord/Pages/amelioration-route-389.aspx

NFLD/Feds spending $40-80 million a year on Trans-Labrador Highway improvements
https://www.thetelegram.com/news/provinc...trans-labrador-highway-this-year-280946/
https://www.renewcanada.net/newfoundland-and-labrador-releases-its-2018-19-budget/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/trans-labrador-paving-2017-1.4208744

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Port Aux Basque is 1000 km away from North Sydney, so Miramichi’s even farther.

Well, let’s see where QC and feds go with 138 extension first. Like I said, I would like to see how those “holes” in the terrain will be addressed.

I'm thinking you have your ends of Newfoundland backwards.

[Loco101]

What are the costs of ferry service compared compared to having a bridge? Also, delivery times. In my opinion, a bridge would bring a lot of opportunity.