Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

One would assume so in a free trade market. Unless you can prove otherwise.

I was hoping you could provide data to answer my question...

The argument of "fulfilling Canada's needs with Canada's resources" is nationalist and backwards. See: Trump's America.

Not talking about 'making Canada great again' by any means, just looking towards a more balanced approach where we are less dependent on other nations for our wellbeing.

By all means, if it makes financial sense, it should and would be proposed by governments and private industry alike.

As mentioned in a previous post, I'm of the opinion that economics should not be our #1 priority in all cases, as it currently seems to be. Balance, grasshopper, balance.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

And, relying on other nations with less-stringent standards for food production to supply our food does not seem like a good idea, nor does it seem good to economically depend on nations that have questionable ethics (i.e. China) to export our products to. It's not about national pride, per se, but more about supporting our local producers and hopefully eating food with less crap in it. Presumably this would also pay off in decreased healthcare costs (if such chemicals were be linked to specific illnesses - if anybody cares to do the research), which would help offset some of the negative economic effects.

That's the free market though. Consumers have demanded lower prices for decades, and they are seeing where that leads.

Personally our family has not bought any food products made or processed in China for years.

Check labels in your local Costco. You see things with "USDA Organic" stamps on them that come from China. I trust that as far as I can throw Jason Kenney.

Ditto with "wild caught Alaska salmon" also processed in China. Hell no.

It's more expensive to find real local options. If I were to cut off that Chinese food supply as a political leader, I'd be torched at the polls. All we can do is vote with our own personal wallets and try to educate others.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I understand the concept, and why it makes economic sense to do so. It would be interesting to see data comparing both situations, but I'm sure such data doesn't exist.

However there has been a price to pay with the global economy with much manufacturing being moved to countries with low pay rates, and little to no regulations for worker health and safety or environmental controls.

So, now we don't manufacture much of anything anymore so that our stuff can be made in places where the workers and the environment are treated like crap... all so that we can get cheaper stuff to support our relatively cushy lifestyles.

And, relying on other nations with less-stringent standards for food production to supply our food does not seem like a good idea, nor does it seem good to economically depend on nations that have questionable ethics (i.e. China) to export our products to. It's not about national pride, per se, but more about supporting our local producers and hopefully eating food with less crap in it. Presumably this would also pay off in decreased healthcare costs (if such chemicals were be linked to specific illnesses - if anybody cares to do the research), which would help offset some of the negative economic effects.

I'm not talking about going Trump here (I despise the man and the state of US politics of the past few years), but there has to be a better balance than having our farmers lose their shirts over political struggles, increasing pollution (or to be more current - affecting climate change) by shipping stuff continually all over the planet), etc. etc.

But basically, I'm saying that almost all of our priorities go towards the economy, whereas it would perhaps be better if we considered other priorities over economics in some (perhaps many) cases.

I realize I'm getting off the topic of the west hating the east, so I'll leave it off here.

Fair enough. I agree the system is far from perfect. Lots of the issues should be solvable with good trade agreements, but that's easier said than done.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That's the free market though. Consumers have demanded lower prices for decades, and they are seeing where that leads.

Personally our family has not bought any food products made or processed in China for years.

Check labels in your local Costco. You see things with "USDA Organic" stamps on them that come from China. I trust that as far as I can throw Jason Kenney.

Ditto with "wild caught Alaska salmon" also processed in China. Hell no.

It's more expensive to find real local options. If I were to cut off that Chinese food supply as a political leader, I'd be torched at the polls. All we can do is vote with our own personal wallets and try to educate others.

Good points.

I am of the same mindset regarding our food. I actually prefer to go to local farmers markets and other local suppliers to support our local producers, but also to have some trust in how it's been produced.

Sorry, I have strayed from the 'west vs east, to pipe or not to pipe' topic, so I'll leave off on that note.

[milomilo]

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm pretty tired of talking about pipelines anyway.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm pretty tired of talking about pipelines anyway.

I 2nd that. I just can't stand for people spreading mis-truths or lies, including media. They need to be corrected.

[rousseau]

Take it from me. Take it from anyone. Use it as a mantra when in the supermarket.

Never. Buy. Produce. Or, Other. Edibles. From. China.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I 2nd that. I just can't stand for people spreading mis-truths or lies, including media. They need to be corrected.

I'll bite. What mistruths are out there today?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Take it from me. Take it from anyone. Use it as a mantra when in the supermarket.

Never. Buy. Produce. Or, Other. Edibles. From. China.

Are you saying human poop isn't a good fertilizer?

[headhorse]

it’s hilarious that people think fucking China is the problem with our food and not the fact that Monsanto and it’s ilk have devastated ecosystems and made billions reliant on their fake cancer food

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by headhorse

it’s hilarious that people think fucking China is the problem with our food and not the fact that Monsanto and it’s ilk have devastated ecosystems and made billions reliant on their fake cancer food

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Are you saying human poop isn't a good fertilizer?

I was talking more about the ca-razy chemical additives, fertilizers and insecticides they use there.

Think about what corporations in the West used to get away with and probably still would if they could (and still sometimes do). Now multiply that by a fascist/cowboy-capitalist society shot through with corruption and shoddy safety practices, and mostly without a sense of empathy that would compel at least some people to feel guilty about the harm that could result when engaging in unethical practices, and you have the Chinese food chain.

Adulterating baby formula with no care for the inevitably horrible consequences really does take the cake (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I was talking more about the ca-razy chemical additives, fertilizers and insecticides they use there.

Oh yes definitely. Basically you can't trust the Chinese at all. Full stop.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by headhorse

it’s hilarious that people think fucking China is the problem with our food and not the fact that Monsanto and it’s ilk have devastated ecosystems and made billions reliant on their fake cancer food

Who said that this wasn't an issue?

But, let's get back to westerners and easterners bashing one another, please.

[misher]

Originally Posted by headhorse

it’s hilarious that people think fucking China is the problem with our food and not the fact that Monsanto and it’s ilk have devastated ecosystems and made billions reliant on their fake cancer food

We clear cutted forests down in central and south america so we can supply all the coffee environmentalists chug.



Lets not pretend China is to blame, honestly everything they know they learned from us. I don't pretend that we're on some moral highground to justify things. Choose local over foreign to support our economy. But also let local producers/manufacturers know that they need to be competitive. Look at how much GM, Ford, etc. have improved their products thanks to overseas competition. Competition is good because it drives innovation and improvement. If your familiar with the processor battles between AMD and Intel you'll know that AMD dramatically innovated and improved itself after a near complete collapse and they came out swinging so hard that Intel was forced to innovate after years of stagnation. The same with Microsoft and Apple, I'm not sure the Xbox would exist without competition from Apple.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by misher

Lets not pretend China is to blame, honestly everything they know they learned from us. I don't pretend that we're on some moral highground to justify things.

And the China defense league is here!

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by misher

Lets not pretend China is to blame,...

Who said that? In response to a post about fraudulent labelling I went on a tangent and advised people never to buy food from China because it's not worth the risk.

Originally Posted by misher

...honestly everything they know they learned from us.

This is objectively not true.

Your posting history during the short time you've been here is remarkable. Have you ever posted anything that wasn't demonstrably false or misleading?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Yes, but even if the Liberals had somehow managed to avoid any delays to TMX, it still wouldn't be complete right now, we'd still be facing the same problems. And yet you and your ilk place all of our current problems on one party, and none on circumstance or the other party.



Claims were made that we should use more Canadian oil as a national security strategy, and apparently this means we need more pipelines. But the claim is total nonsense, and needs to be shot down for the nonsense it is. The type of scenario where this would be relevant is extreme and absurd.

Your talk of Russian hacking is more irrelevance. How does the idea they could hack a pipeline justify building a pipeline? If we are worried about that (and we probably shouldn't worry much about it), rail probably is the transport method more immune to hacking.



If the private sector isn't building them, there is no market value to new pipelines. Therefore your wish for more pipelines (with capacity exceeding production, I assume), would require government subsidy. If you're worried about national defense, we should just spend that money on national defense.

You keep repeating the same tired old false info and assumptions. If you don't know what you're talking about keep quiet.

FYI the premiere of Quebec today is crying that they're going to run out of propane in less than five days. Maybe if we had strategic supplies of key products he wouldn't be in panic mode.

FYI the person in charge of TMX now is Seamus O'Regan who even Liberal supporters have ZERO faith in. Speaks volumes that Justin put him in charge of natural resources.

Don't bother responding. Save your fingers from typing out the same nonsense.

Thanks!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That's the free market though. Consumers have demanded lower prices for decades, and they are seeing where that leads.

Personally our family has not knowingly bought any food products made or processed in China for years.

....

It's more expensive to find real local options. If I were to cut off that Chinese food supply as a political leader, I'd be torched at the polls. All we can do is vote with our own personal wallets and try to educate others.

Fixed that for you.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Fixed that for you.

We shop at a lot of local markets and even bulk direct from farms. But thanks for being so much smarter than the rest of us.